The Great Darkness

[Imbefana]

Sorry about that historical mix-up. I don't have my Silmarillion or HoME handy. Thanks so much for your input.

Even so you bring up an interesting question, what did the Elves of Middle Earth eat before the coming of the sun and moon? Starlight is not generally enough for plants to grow. I seem to remember something about Yavanna puting the plants in some kind of stasis too, but I don't have time to look it up right now.

Weren't the seven dwarves awakened before the Sun and Moon were created? It is an interesting question of how both races sustained themselves until then.

Do you mean Yavanna put plants into a stasis after the lamps were destroyed?

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

According to my sometimes sketchy internet reference tools, during the years of the Lamps only trees grew "Yet no birds or flowers had sung or bloomed for these things were still awaiting their time in the bosom of Yavanna", but the trees must have continued growing during the years of the trees, even when there was little light in the eastern parts of Arda, because when the elves awoke at Cuivienen they were in the woods. Also, if Orome was out hunting there must have been sufficient plant life to support animals.

Buy a nice new copy of Silm. is at the top of today's To Do List, as my younger brother (wspauldo12) absconded with my first copy and has now lost it.
After that I can get more exact quotes on the subject.

Sophia

[Neithan]

Also, if Orome was out hunting there must have been sufficient plant life to support animals.

True. But the question is, how is that possible with no sun?

Do you mean Yavanna put plants into a stasis after the lamps were destroyed?

My memory of this is very fuzzy, but I seem to remember that, at least in one version of the story, Yavanna put a sleep on all of her plants in ME because they could no longer get light, and that they woke up when light touched them again. So to answer your question, yes.

[Formendacil]

With regards to Sauron, I have to go with the consensus, and chime in with saying that Sauron's "Second Darkness" would have been a figurative term.

With Morgoth, however, obliterating light and therefore totally destroying everything was more or less his goal. Looking at the essays on Melkor in HoME, Volume X, Morgoth's Ring, you'll see that Morgoth was set on a path that unthwarted would have led to total annihilation of first all good things, then his own servants, and then the world itself, in so far as he was able.

In the same context though, it says that Sauron was not quite so depraved. Sauron did not object to the mere existence of the world (as Melkor did), so long as he could do what he wanted with it.

I would apply the same logic to the sun and moon, had Sauron succeeded in taking over middle-earth. He would not have objected to their live-giving properties, so long as all the life they gave came under his dominion.

[Ainaserkewen]

What's all this about metaphorical darkness? I believe that Sauron fully intended to literally cover the lands in darkness. Why? Because 1) It's what Morgoth would have wanted because it stops life (life of enemies anyway), 2) It would be dark and evil-like. How would he do it? Well, The sun and the moon are essentially lights that are guarded by gods. Sauron, had he his old strength could have taken them down. Then there are the stars to deal with too.

Don't forget Imbefana, the elves were born and lived in darkness for a long time. Even Elves need to eat. I suppose the stars were strong enough to have the trees produce fruit or something.

Weren't the seven dwarves awakened before the Sun and Moon were created? It is an interesting question of how both races sustained themselves until then.

It doesn't say when about the dwarves actually came into existance. They were created before the awakening of the Children of Eru, but were sent to sleep until the awakening. So we can assume that Dwarves awoke sometime after the elves in some remote mountain and were survived by their maker.

[Kuruharan]

What's all this about metaphorical darkness? I believe that Sauron fully intended to literally cover the lands in darkness. Why? Because 1) It's what Morgoth would have wanted because it stops life (life of enemies anyway), 2) It would be dark and evil-like. How would he do it? Well, The sun and the moon are essentially lights that are guarded by gods. Sauron, had he his old strength could have taken them down. Then there are the stars to deal with too.

I’m afraid not. Aside from the quotation I cited above that indicates Sauron intended to dissipate his ash clouds…

) It's what Morgoth would have wanted because it stops life

Formendacil has already answered this. Sauron was not entirely like Morgoth. He wanted domination, not destruction.

It would be dark and evil-like.

Call me strange, but I’m not entirely sure Sauron saw himself in this light (or dark, if you will). I think Sauron would do things that would further his ability to control everything (which is evil enough) but he strikes me as being dreadfully practical in his own fashion and not too likely to knowingly do things that would work against his ability to dominate. Choking off the light and causing all his slaves to die is going to leave him with only the Nazgul to have fun with.

I’m open to discussion on the issue of how Sauron viewed himself, but that is probably a topic for another thread.

How would he do it? The sun and the moon are essentially lights that are guarded by gods. Sauron, had he his old strength could have taken them down. Then there are the stars to deal with too

He could not do that. Morgoth could not do that back in his day and by this point in time Sauron was weaker than Morgoth was when he assaulted the moon. The way to cut off the light would be to have Mount Doom (and any other handy volcanoes) spew forth enough ash to cover the world.

[Ainaserkewen]

Hmm, Kuruharan, seems I've misplaced some of my ideas, eh?

Morgoth wanted domination. He believed that the lands of Middle-Earth should be his and his alone because he participated in their making the most. He destroyed the creations of the other Valar because of jealously and probably pride.

Sauron was not competing with his peers, he surpased them not in power but in ingenuity. He used the vast ressources of Elves and Men to conquer, for example the Ring. It is my belief that because he was losing his hold on the lands abandoned (so it seemed) by the Valar, his thoughts would have went to most drasic plans then previous. Sauron was challenged by Elves and Men and wiping out light would certainly cripple them. Perhaps that wasn't his plan, but the fear that he could spread with his whispers and silent orders was a good start.

[Kuruharan]

He destroyed the creations of the other Valar because of jealously and probably pride.

You are certainly right about that.

However, I must still agree with Formendacil that Morgoth wanted destruction over and above domination.

Sauron was challenged by Elves and Men and wiping out light would certainly cripple them.

Well, yes...that's why he did it. But the original question was whether he would maintain a perpetual physical darkness and I think that is unlikely.