Saruman's fireball - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Snorri Swifthammer · 01-12-2005, 12:29 PM

Narya! That's the name of the ring that I couldn't remember!

The Only Real Estel · 01-12-2005, 01:19 PM

I don't think Jackson 'messed up' at all. He most likely knew that the book never mentioned Saruman shooting fireballs (although it also never mentioned that he couldn't, that I remember) but decided to go ahead & have his movie version of Saruman be able to do that. In light of many of Jackson's other changes, this one strikes me as a rather slight & understandable change, as the 'non-book reading' audience would only assume having powers (not just vocal ones) to be a normal trait for a wizard. As for me, I have no real problem with it, I see no reason why it would violate any of Tolkien's set-in-stone writings (feel free to prove me wrong, though) and, as I said before, it seems like a rather minor change to me.

alatar · 01-12-2005, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Only Real Estel

as I said before, it seems like a rather minor change to me.

Agreed. Compared to some of the PJ changes, this one is in the minor category.

I still think that it is out of character for Saruman. His voice is used to summon a storm and lightning in FOTR, and though he and Gandalf fought with their staffs, he still spoke.

So why did PJ have it in the movie? Obviously it showed that Gandalf was stronger now than Saruman, but I think that it was a poor way of showing it. Weta probably was all for it.

Boromir88 · 01-12-2005, 02:04 PM

This is a rather minor change, but one comment...

Quote:

as the 'non-book reading' audience would only assume having powers (not just vocal ones) to be a normal trait for a wizard.

The only problem I have with this, is then people asking, why didn't Saruman shoot up the ents, or why didn't Gandalf shoot light rays out of his staff against the orcs? He did it before why not now?

Lolidir · 01-12-2005, 08:17 PM

that is a good question.

in the book he comes out and starts to talk, use his voice to cast a spell, and if im not mistaken, althoug i might be so feel free to let me know, Theoden is affected by it at first and then over comes it as he did in the movie. so that part is correct. in the book Sarumon sees that he has no power left and retreats into Orthanc and goes on to end everything in the shire. (for those of you who have no idea what i am talking about, its the end of the book RTOK. it good so go read it.) PJ decided not to put that in the movie so he had to show the end of Sarumon some how. he also had to show that he had lost his power over Gandalf. retreating into the tower would have done nothing to help in showing the end of him. by firing the fire ball at Gandalf and him reflecting it or what ever shows the Sarumon no longer had any power over him. and as for how he was shot down that just is how PJ chose to end Sarumon.

as it has been said before this just a minor change.

The Only Real Estel · 01-12-2005, 09:02 PM

Quote:

PJ decided not to put that in the movie so he had to show the end of Sarumon some how. he also had to show that he had lost his power over Gandalf. retreating into the tower would have done nothing to help in showing the end of him. by firing the fire ball at Gandalf and him reflecting it or what ever shows the Sarumon no longer had any power over him

True, but it probably would've shown Gandalf's power over Saruman well enough to leave out the fireball & just have Gandalf break his staff.

Quote:

The only problem I have with this, is then people asking, why didn't Saruman shoot up the ents, or why didn't Gandalf shoot light rays out of his staff against the orcs? He did it before why not now?

Great point. In trying to put myself in the shoes of a person who has just seen the movie without having read the books, I've found that it would be very confusing that Gandalf can fight off Gimli, Legolas, & Aragorn in three seconds, blind Nazgul, etc., but never seems to make much use of such powers once the real fighting starts.

When I watched TTT for the first time, I assumed Saruman did nothing for several reasons: (A) He was taken by suprise (somehow) & caught off guard & (B) The damage was already 98% done by the time he had come out. Now I suppose to add to your question about shooting up the ents, a non-book reader could assume that he did nothing because he didn't have his staff with him when he was out on the balcony.

Of course, going by Jackson's version, he could've blasted all the ents out of spite because they turned his tower into an island--but for some reason he didn't. There are definitly holes that can be found (as usual). I guess I view it as a throw-away seen, but I'm still not greatly bothered by it.

Encaitare · 01-12-2005, 09:57 PM

I didn't like the fireball, nor did I like how Gandalf is somehow mysteriously impervious to flame -- maybe he built up a fire tolerance from fighting that Balrog? You know, the wingless one?

While I didn't care for that aspect of the scene, I'm not going to dwell on it. I'll just look at Grima instead. Heh. Yay Brad Dourif.

01-12-2005, 08:17 PM	#5
Lolidir Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Roaming the plains of Middle Earth Posts: 103	that is a good question. in the book he comes out and starts to talk, use his voice to cast a spell, and if im not mistaken, althoug i might be so feel free to let me know, Theoden is affected by it at first and then over comes it as he did in the movie. so that part is correct. in the book Sarumon sees that he has no power left and retreats into Orthanc and goes on to end everything in the shire. (for those of you who have no idea what i am talking about, its the end of the book RTOK. it good so go read it.) PJ decided not to put that in the movie so he had to show the end of Sarumon some how. he also had to show that he had lost his power over Gandalf. retreating into the tower would have done nothing to help in showing the end of him. by firing the fire ball at Gandalf and him reflecting it or what ever shows the Sarumon no longer had any power over him. and as for how he was shot down that just is how PJ chose to end Sarumon. as it has been said before this just a minor change. __________________ "Its a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to"

01-12-2005, 12:29 PM	#1
Snorri Swifthammer Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Erebor Posts: 49	Narya! That's the name of the ring that I couldn't remember!

01-12-2005, 01:19 PM	#2
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	I don't think Jackson 'messed up' at all. He most likely knew that the book never mentioned Saruman shooting fireballs (although it also never mentioned that he couldn't, that I remember) but decided to go ahead & have his movie version of Saruman be able to do that. In light of many of Jackson's other changes, this one strikes me as a rather slight & understandable change, as the 'non-book reading' audience would only assume having powers (not just vocal ones) to be a normal trait for a wizard. As for me, I have no real problem with it, I see no reason why it would violate any of Tolkien's set-in-stone writings (feel free to prove me wrong, though) and, as I said before, it seems like a rather minor change to me.

01-12-2005, 09:57 PM	#7
Encaitare Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise Posts: 1,814	I didn't like the fireball, nor did I like how Gandalf is somehow mysteriously impervious to flame -- maybe he built up a fire tolerance from fighting that Balrog? You know, the wingless one? While I didn't care for that aspect of the scene, I'm not going to dwell on it. I'll just look at Grima instead. Heh. Yay Brad Dourif.