Boldogs, Gothmogs and Sauron's New Clothes

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I like it, I think it captures the potential for evil spirits and such. Another source in all this would be the fea of dead elves who refused to go to Mandos and were corrupted and rehoused, which I increasing except as the essence of the Barrow-wrights, and other necromancy in Middle-Earth.

[The Saucepan Man]

Did I say that they couldn't reproduce?

Oops! My apologies. I misread "ability" for "inability". My only excuse is that it was the early hours for me (being on GMT).

*Saucepan skulks off to write "I must read posts properly before responding" 100 times*

I do seem to recall discussion around here at some time to the effect that fallen Ainur could not reproduce, though. Didn't Tolkien speculate that Morgoth was rendered sterile in consequence of his fallen state? I will provide a link if I can find it.

I, personally, wouldn't have picked Gorbag out as a Boldog, but maybe they are more common than I am supposing. Or perhaps, being a captain, he has Boldog-blood, and thus greater longevity?

If one holds with the idea (put forward by Tolkien in his later years, I believe) that "normal" Orcs are mere creatures without fea directed by a greater will, then the Boldog analysis would explain the rebellious tendencies exhibited by Shagrat and Gorbag in their conversation. Personally, though, I don't hold with that idea, as Orcs in general, as depicted in The Hobbit and LotR, exhibit too great a degree of sentience and independence, to my mind, to be mere automata.

Edit: Here is the quote that I was thinking of (from Morgoth's Ring - Myths Transformed):

Evil is fissiparous. But itself barren. Melkor could not 'beget', or have any spouse (though he attempted to ravish Arien, this was to destroy and 'distain' her, not to beget fiery offspring).

Whether this applies to Melkor alone, or also to lesser fallen Ainu, is not clear. Although the suggestion is that an evil being would be barren by virtue of its evil nature, there are clear indications elsewhere that Orcs reproduced in the manner of other races.

[Neithan]

There are some who hold that Gorbag's reference, in his conversation with Shagrat, to the "bad old times" and the "Great Siege" derives from first hand experience, suggesting an extraordinary longetivity.

Does Tolkien say anywhere what the normal life span of an Orc is?

Whether this applies to Melkor alone, or also to lesser fallen Ainu, is not clear.

I think it only applied to Morgoth (and maybe Sauron since he became a lot like Morgoth in the end). After all, Ungoliant had offspring.

[Petty Dwarf]

Being so low on the scale of power, these Boldogs would likely have been tied to a single incarnate form (hence their ability to reproduce and mate with other proto-Orks), and would thus have definitely been "slay-able", just as the more powerful Balrogs were. Also, as with the more powerful Balrogs, these Boldogs would not have been like to reincarnate themselves.

I don't know if I agree with Boldogs being tied to a single incarnate form. Leaving room for variability I'm sure some could have been, while others were not. I always read the sentence "Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared..." as "Orc-captains who were slain but not killed, and who reappeared...". Perhaps due to a confusion in the definition, what made me make the leap was the fact that Boldog the orc-captain obviously died in Doriath, yet Tolkien puts forth his name as one that reappears. There is a purposeful contradiction here, created by Tolkien.

I also don't think a Boldog was very much further down from a Balrog. They were described as "only less formidable than the Balrogs". Read with the emphasis on the "less". The greater ones at least were horrifying, and probably more trollish than orkish.

So could a Balrog become a Boldog in rehousing?

Whether this applies to Melkor alone, or also to lesser fallen Ainu, is not clear

In the same Orcs passage from Quendi and Eldar it states specifically that Melkor had no children. It seems as if reproduction was for some Ainu and not for others. But any who did must have been tied to a single incarnate form.

[obloquy]

I think your rankings are more complicated than they need to be. Morgoth was obviously the most powerful of the Fallen. Sauron was an especially powerful Umaia, but I do not see any reason to put him in a different class than the Balrogs. They were all the same, they just possessed varying degrees of power.

Also, Ungoliante was not an Umaia.

I think that it was possible for a spirit that had died as an Incarnate to be reembodied by a more powerful being.

[Neithan]

Also, Ungoliante was not an Umaia.

Isn't this debatable? I always thought that she was a powerful Ainu and that she was one of those who went over to Melkor during the Music. But after they came to Arda and began shaping it Ungoliant left Melkor to fulfill her own purposes. Isn't it also possible that she was one of the people of Varda or at least had something to do with light and that Melkor corrupted her so that she became somewhat the opposite.

I think that it was possible for a spirit that had died as an Incarnate to be reembodied by a more powerful being.

An interesting thought but what are you basing it on?

I don't think that the two Gothmogs are the same, the Lord of Balrogs was just a little to great to be associated with a mere Boldog.

[the phantom]

Might they perhaps be candidate for Boldog-ship?

How about that orc captain in Moria that stabbed Frodo. He seemed to be a bit special. I don't recall that every orc let off a flash of light when their heads were hewn.

Whether this applies to Melkor alone, or also to lesser fallen Ainu, is not clear.

After all, Ungoliant had offspring.

Yep, yep. Just because an Ainu goes bad doesn't mean they can't reproduce.

I think that it was possible for a spirit that had died as an Incarnate to be reembodied by a more powerful being.

An interesting thought but what are you basing it on?

Melkor stuck spirits and such in dragons and wolves, so we know he could house spirits. So why not rehouse? Elves were rehoused after they died, so we know it's possible to rehouse a spirit.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Melkor stuck spirits and such in dragons and wolves, so we know he could house spirits. So why not rehouse? Elves were rehoused after they died, so we know it's possible to rehouse a spirit.

Agreed, but the ability to rehouse the Elves was not given to the Elves themselves, but to the Valar. Perhaps it is similar with the Maiar: once unable to reincarnate themselves, they are dependent on a higher power for rehousing. Of course, Melkor wouldn't be the power that SHOULD be doing this, but he is said to share in, and covet, the gifts of all his brethren, and it would be a form of rebellion to usurp the authority of the Valar (and in doing so create his own army).

Originally Posted by obloquy

I think your rankings are more complicated than they need to be. Morgoth was obviously the most powerful of the Fallen. Sauron was an especially powerful Umaia, but I do not see any reason to put him in a different class than the Balrogs. They were all the same, they just possessed varying degrees of power.

Also, Ungoliante was not an Umaia.

Well, I admitted myself that there could just as well be three rankings as four. But it was a somewhat minor point...

As for Ungoliant, she HAS to be an Úmaia, since how else does one explain that she joined the service of Melkor early on, and she recognised him as the Lord of Utumno? She's also quite powerful in her own right, and once she devours the power of the Trees, she has enough power to threaten Melkor himself (although his power is, of course, much dispersed by now throughout the matter of middle-earth).

It might be possible to debate whether or not Ungoliant was an Úmaia, but I think it has to be agreed on that she was an Ainu in origin, and since she was clearly not of Vala status, she must have been a Maia. Whether or not the "Ú" should be tacked on is pretty unimportant...

Originally Posted by Petty Dwarf

I also don't think a Boldog was very much further down from a Balrog. They were described as "only less formidable than the Balrogs". Read with the emphasis on the "less". The greater ones at least were horrifying, and probably more trollish than orkish.

The relative strength of a Boldog to a Balrog must be a debate that cannot finally be settled, considering how little we know about Boldogs, but I at least should say that a Boldog was considerably below the level of a Balrog. The Balrogs were armies unto themselves. It wasn't until the fall of Gondolin that one ever suffered from death. Previously, any battle including them was won by Morgoth.

Boldogs, on the other hand, were in charge of waging war against Doriath, something that Morgoth surely must have seen as near-impossible in his then-current situation. Had he REALLY been intent on crushing Thingol, surely he would have sent Sauron or Gothmog with the Balrogs against its borders. As it is, we only hear of ONE Boldog leading the skirmishes. In addition to which, it would seem that Beleg and Turin were both quite successful (above and beyond Melian's aid) in holding off his threat.

So personally, I don't think that the Boldogs were all that fearsome compared with Balrogs. Perhaps the analogy of the little-known Lesser Rings can be applied: "Mere trifles to the Elves, but essays in the craft, but still perilous in my mind to mortals" [Paraphrased from memory from the Lord of the Rings Not intended to be completely accurate.]