The halls of mandos and elvish "free will" - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 01-10-2005, 04:41 PM

Well, H-I had a long discussion (which I think we were the only ones reading by the end of it

)n the Evil Things thread. I have to wonder about my learned friend's comment though:

Quote:

Originally Posted by H-I

'All things else' of the quote determines the fate of the things of Arda, and includes animals and plants, as they do not have fëar, theirs being the mode of existence made up of matter entirely, and as matter is finite, so are they.

As I'm not sure it squares with the following:

Quote:

The lncarnates have by the nature of sama the same faculties; but their perception is dimmed by the hroa, for their fea is united to their hroa and its normal procedure is through the hroa, which is in itself part of Ea, without thought. Osanwe Kenta

If animal's 'mode of existence' is 'made up of matter entirely' then they would not have the capacity to think - & we know that some do - Shadowfax clearly thinks & understands language...

(There's also a particular fox - of course he could be one of the Maiar I suppose

)

HerenIstarion · 01-10-2005, 05:27 PM

Well, any exeption just underlines the rules, I reckon

For one, I may not be a good judge of animals and their fate in afterlife, being myself a human

For two, in ME, the latter version of what Huan was may be brought in to my add - animal raised by Valar to have ability of speech, but still no fëa

For three, I always had a feeling that hröa≠body and fëa≠mind, or if it does, equality is not precise, it is approximate. As in Christian theology, spirit≠soul, though the terms in layman's mouth may be interchangeable

For four, does the thought of the quote mean any thought? For surely, to move about, animals must have nervous systems, brains, and, therefore, some processes resembling thinking process of a human. But I suppose by thought the abstract thought is meant

But the stress of my previous post should have been more gravely put on fëar, rather than on matter - though in original plan the union of fëar and hröar was to be eternal, the taint brought into the matter --> hröar by Melkor/Morgoth brought about the need of redemption, and Arda Remade. Hence - all matter as it is now should be destroyed and remade. + Fall of Men (partially caused by effect tainted matter had on fëar of men, for the two affect each other)

But we've been through this before, haven't we?

PS And I do remember the fox which saw three hobbits sleeping under the three. Just don't ask.

davem · 01-11-2005, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H-I

PS And I do remember the fox which saw three hobbits sleeping under the three. Just don't ask.

Maybe it was 'a fox that wasn't there'

......I'm sure Child, at least, will get that one........

Tinuviel of Denton · 05-04-2005, 08:54 AM

Well, I certainly don't get it. I'd rather like to know where the idea comes from; is there a thread I can read?

(Oh, and?

Quote:

By davem
Well, H-I had a long discussion (which I think we were the only ones reading by the end of it )

I read the entire thing and enjoyed it immensely, though I was probably late coming along and wouldn't have anything interesting to add to the discussion...)

01-10-2005, 05:27 PM	#2
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	tricky davem Well, any exeption just underlines the rules, I reckon For one, I may not be a good judge of animals and their fate in afterlife, being myself a human For two, in ME, the latter version of what Huan was may be brought in to my add - animal raised by Valar to have ability of speech, but still no fëa For three, I always had a feeling that hröa≠body and fëa≠mind, or if it does, equality is not precise, it is approximate. As in Christian theology, spirit≠soul, though the terms in layman's mouth may be interchangeable For four, does the thought of the quote mean any thought? For surely, to move about, animals must have nervous systems, brains, and, therefore, some processes resembling thinking process of a human. But I suppose by thought the abstract thought is meant But the stress of my previous post should have been more gravely put on fëar, rather than on matter - though in original plan the union of fëar and hröar was to be eternal, the taint brought into the matter --> hröar by Melkor/Morgoth brought about the need of redemption, and Arda Remade. Hence - all matter as it is now should be destroyed and remade. + Fall of Men (partially caused by effect tainted matter had on fëar of men, for the two affect each other) But we've been through this before, haven't we? PS And I do remember the fox which saw three hobbits sleeping under the three. Just don't ask. __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 01-10-2005 at 05:32 PM.