Wings & Ears: Why Bother? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Linnahiril Tinnufinwen · 01-10-2005, 02:42 PM

I would have to agree with Lalwende that a "letter" from Tolkien ought not to be dismissed outright. But I do believe also that one's own imagination is very important. I am (or have at least attempted to be) a writer myself. I have my own views of the characters and worlds that I create, but I would in no way wish to impede the imaginations of my readers. If it suited someone to read my story, and imagine that the main character looked completely different than what was described (even if the description was in incredible detail), then I wouldn't mind in the least. As long as it contributed to the enjoyment of the book, why should that be a problem? As it is, Tolkien tends to leave many things to the imagination. His descriptions of appearances and such can be vauge, unless he deemed it important. Of course, I didn't know him personally, but I really don't think he is the kind of author that would be bothered by the fact that his readers have their own interpretations of his books. I believe that anyone can feel free to imagine anything they wanted: Legolas with red hair, balrogs with seven arms, etc. The LOTRs would still be just as enjoyable to them as to the next person.

mark12_30 · 01-10-2005, 02:55 PM

Fordim! Fordim Hedgethistle!

Triflest thou with thy boardmates?!? Villain, o, most pernicious villain-- meet it is that I set it down, that one may poll, and poll, and be a villain! Pah! Thou art a scoundrel of the lowest rank and file, breathing the reek of the deepest foundries of Moria. I, Roggie, whether I am winged or not, do scoff at thee and smite thee with this, my stolen Gnome-Gauntlet. Neither thy dark hair nor thine rounded ears shall avail thee, for lo, the souls of our slain debates do hover over us, and either thou or I shall accompany them hence. Quail, quail, I say, for the chasm opens before us both! Do thy worst! Have at thee, thou inveterate paper-shuffler!

radagastly · 01-10-2005, 03:31 PM

Told you so! I knew it!

In any case, I'm afraid I'm a bit like Gildor on this question, and must say both no and yes.

While the existence of such a letter would certainly make good fodder for these debates, (fodder I would not be above using if it suited me) I suspect that while reading through the story the momentum of the journey through Moria, or the description of Legolas or the other elves would carry me into my own, accustomed view of things, regardless of what Tolkien has said subsequently. It is the way of good fiction that a well chosen description taps into the readers imagination to fill in the blanks. Bilbo's brass buttons imply a level of wealth that most of his fellow hobbits do not enjoy. Gollum's teeth are sharp because he files them, but are they sharp like incisors, or needle-like canines? I may have forgotten a detail, but I don't believe Tolkien specifies (thank goodness.) I can barely tolerate a basic cleaning at the dentist, much less file my own teeth sharp with a stone.

So, while I might enjoy arguing against balrog-wings and for pointy ears, the balrog I see when I accompany the Fellowship through Moria will have very frightening wings, and Legolas' ears will be as round on top as mine are. That's just the way I've always seen it.

Child of the 7th Age · 01-10-2005, 03:56 PM

Helen, Encaitare -

I have no doubt Frodo will be all right in the end, but I hereby assert my rights as a reader to make certain judgments! I have always considered myself to be someone who makes every effort to follow Tolkien not only in terms of the text of the book, but also the ideas set forward in the Letters and in the unpublished essays. I consider it a way of showing respect to the author. It is also a natural outcome of my training as a historian: to search for documented evidence and make a decision based on that evidence. And yet, thinking about Fordim's question, I came to the realization that there potentially could be certain situations where I would not be comfortable with that approach.

While I singled Frodo out as an example, and it happened to be the ending of the book, I did not mean to limit myself to that. I guess what I am saying is this: there might be instances where I would take my own clue from the existing book rather than follow an essay or letter that was outside the actual published text, especially if it represented a change in the way a character was presented. I would make a conscious choice to assert my own interpretation of the text rather than the explanation given by Tolkien. This would certainly not be something that would apply to Balrog Wings or Elf Ears, but there are theoretically other instances where it could come into play. I objected to PJ changing the depiction of key characters, and I just might do the same with Tolkien!

The chances of this occurring are about 1 in 500,000 as I doubt any posthumous papers will be found that fall into this category. Still, the fact that I would even consider this is somewhat surprising to me. I fear I will have to go back and edit my posts on Canonicity. This is what happens when you hang around with English majors and other 'literary folk'!

mark12_30 · 01-10-2005, 04:11 PM

With a terrible cry Fordim fell forward, and his shadow plunged down and vanished. But even as Fordim fell he swung his whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about Cami's knees, dragging her to the brink. She staggered, and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into Canonicity Chasm.

'Fly, you fools!' she cried, and was gone.

Ainaserkewen · 01-10-2005, 04:15 PM

Hmm, yes, much to ponder...

I'd like to share a similar example non-Tolkien related to make a point.

I like to read fanfiction of many kinds. One faithful day I came across an absolutely beautiful crossover of my two favourites. It still remains to this day my favourite. I read through the over 30 chapters gasping for more when it promptly, like most fanfics, dropped off. Giving into despair, I realised that this was the end and stopped checking for updates, but my imagination didn't stop there. I started dreaming up later chapters, how other characters were introduced and woven into the complex plot that was set up for me and generally finished the story myself. Just as I'm running out of ways to end it low and behold one day the author adds three more chapters. I have the ending that I dreamt up, but now there is the real thing from the original mind that had absolutely nothing to do with mine. Rather than feel disapointed, I was once again entranced in the new chapters totally unique to my own thoughts and on different tangents. I sort of forgot my own interpretation and invented new tangents that went with the new chapters.

My point, if you read the last paragraph, is that there is a reason why you fell in love with the original story...because you love the imagination and the thought and storytelling process of the author. We all have personal imagination deviations from Tolkien's stories but if such a letter or continuation were to be found concerning some finer points such as ears and wings (which I believe are very important to the story) then we'd all settle down with the new information and then go at it all again in a new and different angle.

01-10-2005, 02:42 PM	#1
Linnahiril Tinnufinwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: California Posts: 77	I would have to agree with Lalwende that a "letter" from Tolkien ought not to be dismissed outright. But I do believe also that one's own imagination is very important. I am (or have at least attempted to be) a writer myself. I have my own views of the characters and worlds that I create, but I would in no way wish to impede the imaginations of my readers. If it suited someone to read my story, and imagine that the main character looked completely different than what was described (even if the description was in incredible detail), then I wouldn't mind in the least. As long as it contributed to the enjoyment of the book, why should that be a problem? As it is, Tolkien tends to leave many things to the imagination. His descriptions of appearances and such can be vauge, unless he deemed it important. Of course, I didn't know him personally, but I really don't think he is the kind of author that would be bothered by the fact that his readers have their own interpretations of his books. I believe that anyone can feel free to imagine anything they wanted: Legolas with red hair, balrogs with seven arms, etc. The LOTRs would still be just as enjoyable to them as to the next person. __________________ The world is a great book, of which they who never stir from home read only a page

01-10-2005, 02:55 PM	#2
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Fordim! Fordim Hedgethistle! Triflest thou with thy boardmates?!? Villain, o, most pernicious villain-- meet it is that I set it down, that one may poll, and poll, and be a villain! Pah! Thou art a scoundrel of the lowest rank and file, breathing the reek of the deepest foundries of Moria. I, Roggie, whether I am winged or not, do scoff at thee and smite thee with this, my stolen Gnome-Gauntlet. Neither thy dark hair nor thine rounded ears shall avail thee, for lo, the souls of our slain debates do hover over us, and either thou or I shall accompany them hence. Quail, quail, I say, for the chasm opens before us both! Do thy worst! Have at thee, thou inveterate paper-shuffler! __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

01-10-2005, 03:31 PM	#3
radagastly Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Washington, D. C., USA Posts: 299	Told you so! I knew it! In any case, I'm afraid I'm a bit like Gildor on this question, and must say both no and yes. While the existence of such a letter would certainly make good fodder for these debates, (fodder I would not be above using if it suited me) I suspect that while reading through the story the momentum of the journey through Moria, or the description of Legolas or the other elves would carry me into my own, accustomed view of things, regardless of what Tolkien has said subsequently. It is the way of good fiction that a well chosen description taps into the readers imagination to fill in the blanks. Bilbo's brass buttons imply a level of wealth that most of his fellow hobbits do not enjoy. Gollum's teeth are sharp because he files them, but are they sharp like incisors, or needle-like canines? I may have forgotten a detail, but I don't believe Tolkien specifies (thank goodness.) I can barely tolerate a basic cleaning at the dentist, much less file my own teeth sharp with a stone. So, while I might enjoy arguing against balrog-wings and for pointy ears, the balrog I see when I accompany the Fellowship through Moria will have very frightening wings, and Legolas' ears will be as round on top as mine are. That's just the way I've always seen it. __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.

01-10-2005, 03:56 PM	#4
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Helen, Encaitare - I have no doubt Frodo will be all right in the end, but I hereby assert my rights as a reader to make certain judgments! I have always considered myself to be someone who makes every effort to follow Tolkien not only in terms of the text of the book, but also the ideas set forward in the Letters and in the unpublished essays. I consider it a way of showing respect to the author. It is also a natural outcome of my training as a historian: to search for documented evidence and make a decision based on that evidence. And yet, thinking about Fordim's question, I came to the realization that there potentially could be certain situations where I would not be comfortable with that approach. While I singled Frodo out as an example, and it happened to be the ending of the book, I did not mean to limit myself to that. I guess what I am saying is this: there might be instances where I would take my own clue from the existing book rather than follow an essay or letter that was outside the actual published text, especially if it represented a change in the way a character was presented. I would make a conscious choice to assert my own interpretation of the text rather than the explanation given by Tolkien. This would certainly not be something that would apply to Balrog Wings or Elf Ears, but there are theoretically other instances where it could come into play. I objected to PJ changing the depiction of key characters, and I just might do the same with Tolkien! The chances of this occurring are about 1 in 500,000 as I doubt any posthumous papers will be found that fall into this category. Still, the fact that I would even consider this is somewhat surprising to me. I fear I will have to go back and edit my posts on Canonicity. This is what happens when you hang around with English majors and other 'literary folk'! __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 01-10-2005 at 04:06 PM.

01-10-2005, 04:15 PM	#6
Ainaserkewen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A cosmic waiting room Posts: 651	Hmm, yes, much to ponder... I'd like to share a similar example non-Tolkien related to make a point. I like to read fanfiction of many kinds. One faithful day I came across an absolutely beautiful crossover of my two favourites. It still remains to this day my favourite. I read through the over 30 chapters gasping for more when it promptly, like most fanfics, dropped off. Giving into despair, I realised that this was the end and stopped checking for updates, but my imagination didn't stop there. I started dreaming up later chapters, how other characters were introduced and woven into the complex plot that was set up for me and generally finished the story myself. Just as I'm running out of ways to end it low and behold one day the author adds three more chapters. I have the ending that I dreamt up, but now there is the real thing from the original mind that had absolutely nothing to do with mine. Rather than feel disapointed, I was once again entranced in the new chapters totally unique to my own thoughts and on different tangents. I sort of forgot my own interpretation and invented new tangents that went with the new chapters. My point, if you read the last paragraph, is that there is a reason why you fell in love with the original story...because you love the imagination and the thought and storytelling process of the author. We all have personal imagination deviations from Tolkien's stories but if such a letter or continuation were to be found concerning some finer points such as ears and wings (which I believe are very important to the story) then we'd all settle down with the new information and then go at it all again in a new and different angle. __________________ Solus... I'm eating chicken again. I ate chicken yesterday and the day before... will I be eating chicken again tomorrow? Why am I always eating chicken? Last edited by Ainaserkewen; 01-10-2005 at 04:42 PM.

01-10-2005, 04:11 PM	#5
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	With a terrible cry Fordim fell forward, and his shadow plunged down and vanished. But even as Fordim fell he swung his whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about Cami's knees, dragging her to the brink. She staggered, and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into Canonicity Chasm. 'Fly, you fools!' she cried, and was gone.