Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by me

Is anyone actually inclined to be persuaded one way or the other by the various arguments?

Just to be clear, I did not mean by this comment to suggest that the discussion is futile or pointless. It is, in fact, both entertaining and engrossing as far as I am concerned. However, this does seem to be one of those issues in which views are generally pretty firmly entrenched - most probably because it is a debate which has been raging for so long.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Saucie

Is anyone actually inclined to be persuaded one way or the other by the various arguments?

As may be observed above, I had been flippantly neutral and/or indifferent for the past thirty years (thirty years is a LONG time to not care about balrog wings) until the other day when I was soundly convinced by the logic of Mister Underhill-- by which I remain satisfied, and unrattled by other arguments I have read since.

So yes, it can happen.

[Lalwendë]

As someone who used to take a great interest in psephology, the study of voting patterns, this is starting to get really interesting. We have already had questions raised about whether the voting system is flawed, a former floating voter being persuaded by some pamphleteering, even questions raised as to what leads us into voting a certain way! And they wonder why real elections can get so fraught! Is the Barrow-Downs Select Committee going to examine the results?

And like Saucepan Man says, I'm finding it entertaining, by the way!

[Mithalwen]

But as yet no hanging chad....
and no scope for spoiling ballot papers.

I think balrogs probably used their wings rather as chickens use theirs..........

Maybe balrog wings is just another gimmick by KFC?

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

As someone who used to take a great interest in psephology, the study of voting patterns, this is starting to get really interesting. We have already had questions raised about whether the voting system is flawed, a former floating voter being persuaded by some pamphleteering, even questions raised as to what leads us into voting a certain way! And they wonder why real elections can get so fraught! Is the Barrow-Downs Select Committee going to examine the results?

And like Saucepan Man says, I'm finding it entertaining, by the way!

Pamphleteering? Nay, my duck, it was oratory of the highest ilk-- reported by our beloved Professor himself, and spoken by his sidekicks: Gimli, and Frodo of the Cold Shoulder. Mister Underhill had the good sense to quote it.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

My ulterior motive revealed at last.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Late as usual! If I've duplicated anything I apologize, but here is more food for thought.

First, if Balrogs flew in the First Age, how do we explain the following quotations that were part of the Legendarium from its earliest date? The italics are mine.

The eagles dwell out of reach of Orc and Balrog, and are great foes of Morgoth and his people. (Shaping of Middle-earth, p. 23

But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, And out of the pits of Angaband there issued the winged dragons, that had not been seen; for until that day no creatures of his cruel thought had yet assailed the air. Lost Road, p. 329

There is also this quotation that suggests Melkor’s own inability to fly. If the Balrogs knew how to fly, why would Melkor not go and get the secret from his own allies, rather than trying to capture eagles to force the information from them?

Then arose Thornder, King of Eagles, and he loved not Melko, for Melko had caught many of his kindred and chained them against sharp rocks to squeeze from them the magic words whereby he might learn to fly (for he dreamed of contending even against Manwe in the air); and when they would not tell he cut off their wings and sought to fashion there from a mightly pair for his use, but it availed not. BoLT2, p. 193

As others have pointed out, even in the later writings, there is no mention of Balrogs taking wing to save themselves in any of their fights, even though we have cited instances of Balrogs plunging downward from high places, and falling into crevices.

It seems that everything boils down to five particular passages: the reference in the appendix of LotR, the two mentions of wings in the books itself, the conversation between Gimli and Frodo that Mr. Underhill cited, and the one passage where the Balrogs are said to have come to Morgoth’s aid. Let me take these one at a time…not necessarily in the order listed. I think we have to look very closely at the language and style of writing that’s used and see how this compares with the language and style of other passages to determine if JRRT was speaking literally or figuratively.

First, we’ve already discussed the Gimli sighting. With all respect to Mr. Underhill, I don’t think this proves the case. Gimli says the distant winged thing reminds him of “the shadow of the Balrog”. He says nothing about physical form or wings. The emphasis here is on the “unlight” or “shadow” that invariably cloaks all evil creatures. This is something that Tolkien frequently focuses on. Two evil creatures could have the same dark shadow surrounding them and strike the same feeling of dread, but have very different physical features.

Second there is the appendix reference discussing what happened to the dwarves:

Thus the roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth.” RotK, App. A

The key word here is “flying”… Is it literal or figurative? I think it is the latter. We do have other examples where Tolkien uses the word “flying” to describe someone fleeing something. Thus, Frodo talks about “flying” from the Shire in Shadow of the Past or Tolkien mentions dwarves flying south in front of the dragons. Both of these come from the first two chapters, which is the only place I looked. I could probably find more examples of figurative use if I looked further. (In fact, there’s a reference to Gandalf “flying down the steps” in the chapter where he fights the Balrog.)

Next, there’s the time when the Balrogs come to aid Morgoth:

Swiftly, they arose and passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of Fire.” Morgoth’s Ring,

But again, the language here can be viewed literally or figuratively. There are other places where similar words are used with a figurative meaning: Luthien in human form was said to be “swift as bird on wing” and Fingolphin “passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust”, yet he was clearly on horseback. I don’t see the language of this quote as firm proof.

Finally, there are the words in LotR itself. These have already been quoted… The first passage (like two vast wings) is clearly a simile. But is the second (its wings were spread from wall to wall) a metaphor or a literal description? There are definitely times when Tolkien uses a simile first and then goes on to use a metaphor. The one instance I can remember is when the men from Far Harad are said to be “like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.” In the very next sentence, he calls them “troll-men”.

But there is another argument here that I think is very convincing to show that the second phrase has to be a metaphor, and not a literal description. This is not my original idea: you can find the whole argument in the “Balrog” entry in the Encyclopedia of Arda. I will try to paraphrase it.

First, we know from Tolkien’s text that the chasm is 50 feet wide, and that the hall was “cavernous”, “loftier and far longer than the one in which they had slept” Using this information, the Encyclopedia says this:

The hall is gigantic. If the chasm is fifty feet wide, then the entire hall must be at least several hundred feet longer than it is wide, and the chasm’s length defines the width of the hall. So we can derive a fairly reliable minimum width somewhere in the region of seventy-five to one hundred feet. This is supported by the text, which tells us that the hall was so wide that it needed pillars down the centre to support the roof”…

This means that, if the Balrog’s wings were real, and literally spread ‘wall-to-wall’, its minimum wingspan is also somewhere approaching one hundred feet.”

This, as the entry further explains, raises a serious problem. We know that the Balrog manages to follow the orcs into the Chamber of Marzabul though the same entrance that the Orcs came in. The orcs leapt “one after another” into the Chamber. That implies a door that is not huge.

It should also be noted, and this is a further $.02 from me, that the members of the Fellowship were also told to “slam” the door and they “wedged it with broken sword-blades and splinters of wood.” For them to be able to do this, implies a door that isn’t huge. . There was simply no way that a Balrog with a 100-foot wingspan could have squeezed into the Chamber even if the door was 10-12 feet wide. The meaning of the quote has to be figurative rather than literal.

The Balrogs apparently could control the shadow about them enough to give the illusion of wings, but that's a far cry from real wings, vestigal or full size.

I don’t know… Tolkien changed his mind about so many things about Balrogs. He decreased their numbers and added the shadows. Maybe he also had it in his mind to add real wings, but he never did the revisions of the Legendarium, and never unequivocally said that Balrogs had wings or could fly….

I vote no!

Now, I must definitely have a look at Fordim's "ulterior motive".

[drigel]

The BoLT2, p. 193 quote is interesting.
Spirits of fire originally, perhaps the shadowy characteristics - including the wings - were a result of M's failed attempts at flight. Mabye this was the best M could come up with..

Possibly, their shadowy wings were the legacy of Morgoths stewardship over them.

drigel's balrog thesis so sayeth he

[obloquy]

Good post, Child. I'm glad someone referenced the old dimensions/proportions argument, as it is one of the most convincing pieces for me as well.

Hookbill: Melkor did not create Balrogs.

I also have not voted.