LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 05 - The White Rider

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Let me add one more important thing in this chapter that we can discuss - Galadriel's messages to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli. The first two are prophetic poems (in rhyme form), with rather depressing and hidden meanings, the one to Gimli is brief - do you think what she says about laying his axe to the right tree has a meaning that is important to the plot, as the other two messages do?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

One of the aspects about LOTR which I like is the occasional "history
and/or background" observations/commentaries. Gandalf's here are
especially revealing, especially explaining what would otherwise seem
rather curious, Sauron's frantic haste in attacking Minas Tirith and his
overall psychological makeup.

...he does not yet perceive our purpose clearly. He supposes that we were all going to Minas Tirith; for that is what he would himself have done in our place...Indeed he is in great fear, not knowing what mighty one may suddenly appear, wielding the Ring, and assailing him with war...Wise fool. For if he had used all his power to guard Mordor, so that none could enter, and bent all his guile to the hunting of the Ring, then indeed all hope would have faded: neither Ring nor bearer could long have eluded him.

Also, the above observation of "not knowing what mighty one" seems at variance with the general view, shared by Tolkien himself in "Letters", that
probably only Gandalf could use the Ring against him (ignore PJ's movie
view in toto about no one using the Ring, that's an overinterpretaion/simplistic
view). Gandalf's statement here, which seems to be quite definitive (and by Gandalf the White) would seem to say that a number of candidates might use the Ring: Denethor, Theoden, Gandalf, Aragorn, Faramir, etc. And how would the Ring react to a woman wielding it (Eowyn)? Perhaps that would really put Sauron
off his game.

[davem]

I suppose a few things struck me instantly - the first, Gandalf's claim that he was 'sent back'. Tolkien comments on this in Letter 156:

"Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done." Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the "gods" whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed "out of thought and time". Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, ''unclothed like a child" (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the clothed like a child" (not discarnate), and so ready to recelve the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's Power is not divine, and his healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment. ''.

So, it wasn't the Valar - not even Manwe himself - who sent Gandalf 'back' into the world. It must have been Eru Himself. It seems that Gandalf literally died in his confrontation with the Balrog, & unlike an Elf it seems that he was not destined simply return to Valinor to be clothed in another form & remain forever within the Circles of the World. He truly died & passed into the presence of Eru. This is odd, in the light of other statements by Tolkien that once the Ainur had entered into the world they had to remain there till its end.

Then we have his summoning of Shadowfax:

Gandalf caressed him. 'It is a long way from Rivendell, my friend' he said; 'but you are wise and swift and come at need. Far let us ride now together, and part not in thiis world again.

Its interesting to speculate on how Shadowfax knew of Gandalf's 'need' of him. Perhaps the answer can be found in an earlier draft:

'The earliest extant account of Gandalf's summons to Shadowfax with his three great whistles, and his coming across the plain to the eaves of Fangom with Arod and Hasofel returning is already exactly as in IT (see p. 432); and this seems to fit the story in the present text, for Gandalf says to Shadowfax 'It is a long way from Rivendell, my friend; but you are wise and swift, and come at need,' and he says to Legolas 'I bent my thought upon him, bidding him to make haste; for yesterday he was far away in the south of this land.' (Treason of Isengard)

Perhaps we have here another example of Osanwe? Gandalf summons Shadowfax 'in thought' (as Aragorn will later summon the Dunedain. Of course this opens something of a can of worms - does Shadowfax have a 'soul'? Is he capable of Osanwe himself?

Finally for now, a fascinating insight into one of the powers of wizards from an early draft:

In the first draft Gimli asks: 'That old man. You say Saruman is abroad. Was it you or Saruman that we saw last night?' and Gandalf replies: 'If you saw an old man last night, you certainly did not see me. But as we seem to look so much alike that you wished to make an incurable dent in my hat, I must guess that you saw Saruman [or a I vision>] or some wraith of his making. [Struck out: I did not know that he lingered here so long.]' Against Gandalf's words my father wrote in the margin: Vision of Gandalfs thought. There is clearly an important due here to the curious ambiguity surrounding the apparition of the night before, if one knew how to interpret it; but the words are not perfectly clear. They obviously represent a new thought: arising perhaps from Gandalf's suggestion that if it was not Saruman himself that they saw it was a 'vision' or 'wraith' that he had made, the apparition is now to emanate from Gandalf himself. But of whom was it a vision? Was it an embodied 'emanation' of Gandalf, proceeding from Gandalf himself, that they saw? 'I look into his unhappy mind and I see his doubt and fear', Gandalf has said; It seems more likely perhaps that through his deep concentration on Saruman he had 'projected' an image of Saruman which the three companions could momentarily see. I have found no other evidence to cast light on this most curious element in the tale; but it may be noted that in the time-scheme deriving from the time of the writing of 'Helm's Deep and 'The Road to Isengard' my father noted of that night: 'Aragorn and his companions spend night on the battle-field, and see ''old man" (Saruman). ' (Treason)

The idea that Gandalf could (unconsciously) 'project' an image of Saruman which others could see is fascinating. More Osanwe here? The Istari, it seems are capable of both astral & thought projection, but the former seems the most interesting in the light of Osanwe - was it possible to 'detatch' the Fea from the Hroa? If so, was this a 'technique' which could be mastered by others? Could it even be made to happen to someone against their will? This could explain the Nazgul - were they Hroa-less Fea?

Perhaps there's a clue to this in the Witch King's threat to Eowyn:

'Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.'

Perhaps he's threatening her with what happened to him at Sauron's hands?

[Bêthberry]

Ah, dear, obligations, obligations. For now let me provide this one observation about this chapter.

I cannot now read this chapter, particularly Aragorn's and Legolas's discussion of the interpretation of "signs" , with Gimli's contributions as well, without being reminded of something. Their querulousness over the riddle of the knife and lembas crumbs, the cut ropes and the drying mallorn leaf, reminds me so much of Downer's habits of yaying and nay-saying over points of interpretation of LotR.

I mean, really, when you read of the interpretations of "the bound prisoner" and "some other signs near at hand that you have not considered", and of "how do you suppose" and "that is my tale. Others might be devised", I cannot help but recall the Canonicity thread, the various threads over evil, and of course the current Balrog's wings and elf earz threads.

I suspect here Tolkien is giving us a slight Inkling of the kinds of discussions which the walls of the Bird and Baby witnessed. All seriously done, of course. But oh how that word "signs" has undergone some considerable discussion since these words were put to press.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

do you think what she says about laying his axe to the right tree has a meaning that is important to the plot

If I were a Freudian... but luckily, I'm not one

Hence, I believe it is just a general piece of advice and, at the same time, expression of special sympathy Galadriel has for the dwarf. It almost feels like she's doing her [kind of] duty towards Legolas and Aragorn - the former as a neighbouring elven Kindgom's ruling house member, the latter as kinsman and future son-in-law (and important political entity, or showing promise of becoming one in the future).

With Gimli, on the other hand, it feels like she simply likes the chap, as an interesting, a bit strange, curious, and above all, cute person. Something like a flirt, but Eru forbid think otherwise, innocent flirt. A mother too? Or as an aunty with grown-up children may have special affection for a younger nephew. Galadriel is almost always very lofty, goddess-like (even in her temptations). I reckon Gimli is a medium to show us she's a woman as well, however unwomanlike she may seem (despite her beauty, or even bacuase of her beauty) at times.

[The Saucepan Man]

A few scattered thoughts, as always.

It struck me that it is greatly to Tolkien's credit that, Gimli having sought to explain the old man that appeared to them as a "phantom of Saruman", he can have Aragorn reply "It is likely enough" and get away with it. He has built up the credibility of the fantasy to such an extent by this point that we do not question the fact that Gimli's musings on phantoms might provide a "likely" explanation.

I was interested in the quote that davem gave from Treason of Isengard:

It seems more likely perhaps that through his deep concentration on Saruman he had 'projected' an image of Saruman which the three companions could momentarily see.

I have always been somewhat disinclined to see the old man as Saruman, given the startling similarity of his description to that of Gandalf when he does appear to them in this Chapter, the fact that the old man appears to mean no harm to them and the fact that the horses are (as it turns out) crying with joy rather than fear. I did therefore think that one possible explanation of the incident is that the old man is a "projected" image of Gandalf, either conjured up jointly in the minds of the Three Hunters (a kind of "mass halucination" which foreshadows Gandalf's reappearance to them) or an image projected by Gandalf himself (unconsciously - hence his later lack of awareness of the incident). It is interesting to see that Tolkien was thinking along similar lines, albeit with Saruman rather than Gandalf as the "projected" image.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I cannot now read this chapter, particularly Aragorn's and Legolas's discussion of the interpretation of "signs" , with Gimli's contributions as well, without being reminded of something. Their querulousness over the riddle of the knife and lembas crumbs, the cut ropes and the drying mallorn leaf, reminds me so much of Downer's habits of yaying and nay-saying over points of interpretation of LotR.

Which is probably why I enjoy this part of the Chapter so much. I love the way in which Tolkien constructs a riddle and then solves it via Aragorn. And these passages serve a multiple purpose. They once again point up Aragorn's skill at reading the signs that have been left behind (surpassing Legolas in this regard), provide some welcome humour (particularly in Legolas' comments concerning the propensity of Hobbits to value food in the direst of circumstances and in his light-hearted analyis of the clues), and they engage the reader (even though, or perhaps precisely because, the reader already knows the solution to the riddle).

One thing does mystify me in connection with the Three Hunters' eventual meeting with Gandalf. Although it clearly serves to heighten the tension of the moment, I do wonder why Gandalf chose to be so darn mysterious in his approach, keeping his face hooded and greeting them like strangers. It is almost as if he wants them to mistake him for Saruman. Is he perhaps playing a trick on them? Or even teaching them a lesson - not to go on the attack when not in full possession of the facts? But the latter explanation would go against his later comment:

But, of course, I never blamed you for your welcome of me. How could I do so, who have so often counselled my friends to suspect even their own hands when dealing with the Enemy.

So, why is Gandalf so mysterious here?

Moving onto the much discussed topic of Boromir and his redemption, there is a nice comment here by Gandalf:

But he escaped in the end. I am glad. It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir's sake.

Surely a clear indication that Boromir was in the end free of the Ring and that his valiant defence of Merry and Pippin does indeed redeem him. For me, this makes it clear that, when Aragorn tells the dying Boromir that he has conquered, he is talking of Boromir's will rather than his strength in arms against the orcs.

Most of the remainder of the Chapter is taken up with Gandalf's tale - a wonderful piece of exposition (surely an authorly crime ) which brings together much of what we have learned in recent Chapters and explain precisely how they affect the state of play between the Free Peoples and their Enemies.

I found the following passage concerning Gandalf interesting:

He rose and gazed out eastward, shading his eyes, as if he saw things far away that none of them could see. Then he shook his head. "No," he said in a soft voice, "it has gone beyond our reach. Of that at least we can be glad. We can no longer be tempted to use the Ring. We must go down to face a peril near despair, yet that dealy peril is removed.

It seemed to me, on reading this again, that Gandalf is here contemplating the possibility that, were it not beyond his reach, he might be tempted to use the Ring against Sauron. The deceits of the Ring are great indeed if even Gandalf recognises that he might have succumbed to them (as a companion to the Ringbearer, rather than as the Ringbearer himself). Does this not put Boromir's downfall in rather a different context?

Finally, to pick up on a few points made earlier:

Originally Posted by Estelyn

do you think what she says about laying his axe to the right tree has a meaning that is important to the plot, as the other two messages do?

Is this perhaps related to Gimli mistaking Gandalf for Saruman? Might Galadriel be warning him to be sure of his enemy before going on the offensive? Although, if so, it is rather late with regard to his mistaking Gandalf's identity, and it would seem to go against the comment by Gandalf quoted above. Alternatively, it might be a warning to Gimli not to go about hacking trees with abandon when in Fangorn - although this would merely be repeating Legolas' warning to him on entering the wood.

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Also, the above observation of "not knowing what mighty one" seems at variance with the general view, shared by Tolkien himself in "Letters", that probably only Gandalf could use the Ring against him

Although there is perhaps a distinction to be drawn between what Sauron might fear and what would happen in practice. Sauron may have overestimated the power that the Ring could confer upon one less powerful than him.

Originally Posted by davem

This is odd, in the light of other statements by Tolkien that once the Ainur had entered into the world they had to remain there till its end.

But wasn't Gandalf a special case, in that Eru's direct intervention was required to "reclothe" him and allow him to return incarnate to carry on his mission? Perhaps, in light of this, Gandalf's spirit needed to travel beyond the Circles of the World, even though this might not be the "normal" fate of an incarnate Ainu upon the death of his or her physical body.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Perhaps we have here another example of Osanwe? Gandalf summons Shadowfax 'in thought' (as Aragorn will later summon the Dunedain. Of course this opens something of a can of worms - does Shadowfax have a 'soul'? Is he capable of Osanwe himself?

I like those cans of worms.

If Shadowfax is one of the Mearas who themselves were brought from Valinor, then there is the possibility that he is capable of osanwe. It is shown that Shadowfax reputedly will only bear the King of Rohan and that it is astonishing that he allows Gandalf to ride him; perhaps these horses do possess sentient thoughts. After all, we have giant eagles which are sentient beings, why should we not have horses? I wonder if it is mentioned anywhere whether the Mearas had links to the Maiar in some way?

Felarof, ancestor of Shadowfax, was reputed to be able to understand human speech; if so, then perhaps as Incarnates, these creatures could use some form of osanwe.

The following quote which Saucepan Man has picked up on has been interesting to me since I read osanwe-kenta:

He rose and gazed out eastward, shading his eyes, as if he saw things far away that none of them could see. Then he shook his head. "No," he said in a soft voice, "it has gone beyond our reach. Of that at least we can be glad. We can no longer be tempted to use the Ring. We must go down to face a peril near despair, yet that deadly peril is removed.

The instant I read this passage again, I thought of the possibility that Gandalf was trying to use osanwe in order to 'see' if Frodo was in any kind of trouble; this would also explain some of the strange dreams that Frodo might be experiencing, after all, he does not know about Unwill. And the fact that Gandalf gets to a point where he can no longer 'trace' Frodo also suggests that the borders of Mordor present much more then mere physical barriers. There is another passage in which Tolkien seems to write of Gandalf's mental struggle with Sauron, is this osanwe? :

"...The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought."

And in the following passage, is Aragorn referring directly to Osanwe? One of the features of osanwe is that it works more effectively when two people are close in terms of friendship, and that it can in many cases substitute for an excess of words in conversation (much in the way that old friends often complete sentences for one another and need few words):

"In one thing you have not changed, dear friend," said Aragorn: 'you still speak in riddles."

"What? In riddles?" said Gandalf. 'No! For I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to; the long explanations needed by the young are wearying." He laughed, but the sound now seemed warm and kindly as a gleam of sunshine.

"I am no longer young even in the reckoning of Men of the Ancient Houses," said Aragorn. "Will you not open your mind more clearly to me?"

Finally, where did Gandalf go to?

The following suggests some kind of void. Is it the void outside Arda?

Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.

But then the following suggests that he was in a transcendent place, aware of the entirety of existence all at once. Was he aware that he was just one part of the universe? Or aware that he was the universe? or both?

I was alone, forgotten, without escape upon the hard horn of the world. There I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth. Faint to my ears came the gathered rumour of all lands: the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow everlasting groan of overburdened stone.

This makes me think more deeply about Gandalf. Is he somehow much more than one of the Maiar? Does this have something to do with the Secret Fire?

[davem]

A couple of things occured to me on skimming over the chapter again just now:

'Yes. I am white now: said Gandalf. 'Indeed I am Saruman. one might almost say. Saruman as he should have been. But come now, tell me of yourselves! I have passed through fire and deep water since we parted. I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned again much that I had forgotten. I can see many things far off, but many things that are close at hand I cannot see. Tell me of yourselves!

What could Gandalf mean - 'I can see many things far off, but many things that are close at hand I cannot see.'? Clearly he's not claiming that his resurrection has made him 'longsighted'. Perhaps the 'things far off' are spiritual realities - ie the 'realities' of the spiritual realm, & the 'things close at hand' are the things of the world. He has 'forgotten much' - mundane, everyday things - even his own name (the one given to him by the peoples of Middle earth we must assume, not his 'true' name, Olorin). But it seems that he has re-learned his mission, & the spiritual truths which motivated it.

Originally Posted by Lalwende

This makes me think more deeply about Gandalf. Is he somehow much more than one of the Maiar? Does this have something to do with the Secret Fire?

I wondered about this, too. It appears that he has undergone a true re-birth, & is closer to what he had been when he first set foot in Middle earth. What 'Light' he shines with is another question. Is it the Light of Valinor, or is it the light of the Secret Fire, gifted him by Illuvatar when he had passed beyond thought & time? Is he any longer merely a 'Servant of the Secret Fire' - has he now become a Master of it?

The other passage which made an impression:

The others gazed at them in silence as they stood there facing one another. The grey figure of the Man, Aragorn son of Arathorn, was tall and stern as stone,his hand upon the hilt of his sword; he looked as if some king out of the mists of the sea had stepped upon the shores of lesser men. Before him stooped the old figure. white. shining now as if with some light kindled within, bent, laden with years, but holding a power beyond the strength of kings.

Aragorn manifests the 'power of Kings', but it is 'merely' worldly power in this context. Gandalf's power is 'beyond the strength of kings', for it is a spiritual power. Aragorn is 'put in his place here'. But Aragorn happily submits to Gandalf's superiority:

'Do I not say truly, Gandalf,' said Aragorn at last, 'that you could go whithersoever you wished quicker than I? And this I also say: you are our captain and our banner. The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier than they: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him. We will go where he leads.'

Aragorn displays his humility here, before Gandalf, & before what Gandalf symbolises, & we know by this that he will be a great King.