Elves' Ears

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown). The feet from the ankles down, covered with brown hairy fur. Clothing: green velvet breeches; red or yellow waistcoat; brown or green jacket; gold (or brass) buttons; a dark green hood and cloak (belonging to a dwarf). (Emphasis added)

LAS- *lasse leaf: Q lasse, N lhass; Q lasselanta leaf-fall, autumn, N lhasbelin (*lassekwelene), cf. Q Narqelion. Lhasgalen Greenleaf, Gnome name of Laurelin. (Some think this is related to the next and *lasse 'ear'. The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human].) (Emphasis added)

Thanks to the links provided above by the Wight, I saw these citations in the other threads. For me, at least, they do not really put the final nail in the pointy-ear coffin.

1. If these really are the only direct references to pointy-ears, then that's pretty slender evidence to hang such an important feature on.

2. I find them rather uncompelling in their own rights:

2.1 In the first citation, Tolkien is making a comment on Hobbit ears, not Elvish. His only reference there to Elves is extremely indirect -- not only is he referring to them as elves (with a lower case 'e') he even puts them in quotation marks, which means that he is using the word not in its usual sense. Given that he always capitalises the Elves of his world, and that he never refers to them in such a backhanded manner ("The 'elves' of Lorien. . .") I can only conclude that in this letter he is referring to the elves of popular imagination: those pixie like spirits of the wood which have NO relation to the Elves created by Tolkien. (In letter 151 to Hugh Brogan, Tolkien wrote that he came to regret calling his folk Elves since it allied them too closely with these trivial figures of English myth.)


2.2 As to the citation from the HoME, there's all kinds of reasons for me to be unconvinced by it. First, who are these "gnomes" he's talking about? Second, the association between the word 'leaf' and the word for 'ear' is made in a very tenuous manner: "some think." Finally, the final word appears to be an assumption by the editor insofar as it is in parantheses with a question mark. This can only mean that the writing was not completed or that word is indecipherable -- in which case we don't really know what Tolkien meant in this throwaway line. And if the comparison in ear shape is not between Elves and Men, then how can we really draw any definitive conclusions about it?

Against these rather vague and uncompelling descriptions of Elf-ears I would hold up the much longer descriptions of Elves in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings (in particular, the description of the Elves in the Appendices) in which no mention is made of pointed ears whatsoever. Why would he reserve such a crucial distinction between the races for one letter and an illegible note in some rough drafts for an unpublished work??

Even among his unpulbished works (during his lifetime) the descriptions of Elves are remarkably devoid of pointy-ears. Nowhere in the Sil or UT do we hear that Elvish ears are anything special or different from our own. In fact, in another letter (#144 to Naomi Mitchison, who was proof-reading the typescript of LotR and so, presumably, Tolkien would want her to get it right) Tolkien describes his Elves:

They are represented as a race similar in appearance (and more so the further back) to Men, and in former days of the same stature.

Just checked in the mirror: I don't have pointy-ears, so I figure anyone "similar in appearance" to myself wouldn't either!

Guess that's settled now.

For my next trick, I'll prove that Balrogs had wings.

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, you have put up a spirited fight, Professor, but I do think that you dismiss the two pieces of "pro-pointy ear" evidence that we have rather lightly.

The first tells us that Tolkien considered the adjectives "pointed" and "elvish" to be equivalent in connection with the description of ear shape. The capital 'E' is not used for "elvish" because he is using it as an adjective to describe a feature rather than a race. This also explains the use of quotation marks. He might similarly have said "hobbitish" in connection with the description of feet when intending to indicate them as hirsute. The point for me, though, is that his conception of the word "elvish" is one that involves pointed ears, so it is likely that he thought of his own Elves in this way, however different they were in other respects form the Elves of popular folklore.

The second shows us that there is clearly a close association between the Quenyan words for leaf and ear. Why would this be if there was not an actual association, most likely a physical resemblance, between the two things, both in the "fictional reality and in Tolkien's mind"? And the association can be made without regard to the speculation in brackets which, in a way, merely confirms the obvious (the relationship). This suggests to me that the "original" Elves (who spoke Quenya) had pointed ears. This may have changed over time, but this seems unlikely - and the quote that you have provided suggests that Elves became less Man-like over time rather than moreso.

As for the lack of any description of Elves' ears other than these references, well Tolkien was not really one for giving physical descriptions of his characters (as opposed to landscapes), in his published works at least, unless this was necessary for the story. The reason for the description of Bilbo Baggins in Letter #27 is because there is very little in the way of a physical description of him in The Hobbit - so much so, in fact, that there was a popular conception around the time that it was published that they were similar in appearance to rabbits! There is, as I recall, scant description of the appearance of Elves in either The Hobbit or LotR. Such that there is relates mainly to their beauty (a general term) and their hair colour (and Tolkien didn't even accord his main Elven character in the latter book, Legolas, that detail).

Tolkien's reference, in Letter #144, to Elves resembling Men in appearance does not, to my mind, in any way preclude pointed ears. I would describe Vulcans as being similar in appearance to Men, although there are obviously features which distinguish them. Moreover, ear shape varies considerably among humans and some can be quite "pointed".

Nevertheless, while I imagine Elves as having pointed ears (and have done since I first read the book), and I believe that the evidence points to Tolkien imagining them in the same way, the lack of any solid evidence in any published "final" story certainly allows ample scope for people to believe otherwise, should they so wish.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

All right -- I've decided we shall settle this in the only way I know how: democratically!

I've attached a poll to this thread so, having read through the arguments everyone get up there and weigh in on this heated issue.

It's your chance to have a hearing.

EDIT Hmmm. . .only been up for ten minutes and already we're tied at one vote apiece.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

2.2 As to the citation from the HoME, there's all kinds of reasons for me to be unconvinced by it. First, who are these "gnomes" he's talking about?

Fordie, you CANNOT be serious. Say it ain't so. You DO know that the original name for the Noldorin was "Gnomes." You knew that. Of course you knew that.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

You knew that. Of course you knew that.

Well. . .yes. . .of course, of course. . .of course I knew that. . .known it for a long time. . .testing you all, that's what I was doing. Yes. . .testing you. Of course I knew that. . .who woudn't?. . .I mean that would be just silly, not knowing that. . .got you though, didn't I? I had you really going there for a moment. . .heh heh.

*shuffles papers*

[mark12_30]

Yes. Quite definitely had me going. But all is forgiven, at least all on my part.

Should a Gnomish gauntlet come flying your way, you may rest assured it did not come from me.

[Mithalwen]

Well I was converted to pointy ear fandom .. I have to admit it was something thet made me choke on my popcorn when I saw FOTR but then I read HoME ..... and they are so cute ... My grand-father seems to have had pointy ears and sadly I have not inherited them though I am otherwise very like . If I weren't so anti frivolous cosmetic surgery.....

[davem]

Certainly, Hobbits seem to have 'pointy ears':

http://www.torania.de/luthien/hobbit...en-bagend2.htm

so if hobbit ears are 'slightly pointed & Elvish' it would appear that
elvish ears must be more pointed.....

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by davem

Certainly, Hobbits seem to have 'pointy ears':

http://www.torania.de/luthien/hobbit...en-bagend2.htm

so if hobbit ears are 'slightly pointed & Elvish' it would appear that
elvish ears must be more pointed.....

I've got to say, I'm extremely familiar with that picture (when I was a kid it hung on the wall over my bed for about five years) and I never once saw Bilbo's ears as being pointed. I still don't.

I have, however, noticed that Bag End is a HUGE hole: if we assume that Bilbo is 3 ft 6 in, and that he is about 8 to 10 ft from the door (not an unreasonable assumption if we take the tiles in the floor to be standard 8x12 in) then we can pretty accurately measure the height of the door at 8 ft high, and the hole itself as being about 11 feet high (although the picture does cut off the top of the roof so that's more approximate).

But I digress. . .

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

[INDENT]2.1 In the first citation, Tolkien is making a comment on Hobbit ears, not Elvish. His only reference there to Elves is extremely indirect -- not only is he referring to them as elves (with a lower case 'e') he even puts them in quotation marks, which means that he is using the word not in its usual sense. Given that he always capitalises the Elves of his world, and that he never refers to them in such a backhanded manner ("The 'elves' of Lorien. . .") I can only conclude that in this letter he is referring to the elves of popular imagination: those pixie like spirits of the wood which have NO relation to the Elves created by Tolkien. (In letter 151 to Hugh Brogan, Tolkien wrote that he came to regret calling his folk Elves since it allied them too closely with these trivial figures of English myth.)

Perhaps he means to be referring to elves in the "normal" sense, like pixie-elves. My response to that would be that much of the art work (at least nowadays) of elves has them having huge pointed ears which stick out a foot from their heads. Like this dude: elf?. So perhaps in saying that his hobbits' ears were only slightly "elvish" Tolkien meant pointy, but not huge like the other elves.

...Just a thought...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Estelyn

However, after reading that quote (given by Fordim above) by Tolkien, I realized that he had actually stated the shape of their ears.

Actually, despite my use of those quotes to make my case, this question is, for me, answered on an instinctive level - like many Tolkien questions for which there is no definitive proof one way or the other. I always imagined Elves with pointed ears from the moment that I first read the books, And so that's the way it is for me. Had I imagined them without pointed ears, then my answer would have been "no", despite the evidence which I relied on in my earlier post (which I don't think provide definitive proof - although they are persuasive).

Now - off to the Balrog wings thread to give much the same response ...

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Fordim

That's a good point -- for Elves and humans to reproduce successfully, they would have to be the same species!

They might be, for all we know. But I believe they can still reproduce successfully if they are not of the same species. Look at the horse and the donkey. Or the members of the feline family.

Here's what my limited knowledge of Genetics led me to infer:
*Let EE=pointed ears, ee=rounded ears
Pointed ears could be a dominant trait (EE) exclusive to Elves, and Men possess the recessive gene (ee) to rounded ears. If two Elves procreate, their offspring would still have pointed ears (EE), no matter what (unless some freak-of-nature mutation occurs). A man and a woman would have a child with rounded ears (ee). But if a Man (EE) and an Elf (ee) reproduce, the resulting child would have the Ee genotype for ear shape. Due to the presence of a dominant allele E, the resulting phenotype would still be pointed - hence the Halfelves' pointed ears.

But if this is so, Elros should have had pointed ears (Ee). And since he married a human (ee), the Numenoreans should have had a variety of ear shapes (Ee and ee)! Maybe his choice of mortality came with free genetically-modified (rounded) ears, which he passed on to the Numenoreans. Aragorn has rounded ears, right?

This is much too confusing.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Just wanted to throw in the mix here that the Elves drawn by Tolkien in The Father Christmas Letters do not appear to have pointed ears. Actually, one doesn't see their ears at all. But I would tend to believe that if he felt very strongly that they did have such ears, he would have made some suggestion of it in these drawings. And I know some will argue that they are Red Elves, and really don’t figure in this discussion at all, but there you have it. He does call them 'Elves' not 'elves', though their stature is somewhat pixie-like.

In my own opinion I think that the Elves might have a very slight natural point on the inside ridge of the ear, similar to what can be seen in some humans. Just that it happens more frequently among Elves. I do not think it is unnaturally pronounced. Sort of like aquiline noses or Hapsburg jaws.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

They might be, for all we know. But I believe they can still reproduce successfully if they are not of the same species. Look at the horse and the donkey. Or the members of the feline family.

Quite right about the donkey, but remember -- donkey's are sterile. The textbook def'n of species (at least one part of it) is (searching memory back to first year bio) that they are able to produce off-spring capable of reproduction.

Elves and Men can have children together who then go on to have children -- ergo, the same species.

But like I said above, this does not settle the ear debate, since ear shape could easily have a lot of variation (in fact, it does in human populations: some of us have full lobes, others have lobes that are attached).

[Firefoot]

Just a little bit to add to Lhun's genetic reasoning:

Let's say you reverse it, so that rounded ears would be dominant (EE) and pointed ears are recessive (ee). That would mean that half-Elves would be "Ee" - rounded ears. This would mean that those who chose mortality could only have offspring with rounded ears because of the dominant allele (EE or Ee). So, all of Elros' descendents would have rounded ears, with the possible exception of Aragorn and Arwen's kids, because if by some strange chance Aragorn had an Ee genotype and Arwen did too some kids could have pointed ears - ee. The problem this would present would be for half-Elves who chose immortality - some of their offspring might have rounded ears with the genotype Ee - rounded ears.

[HerenIstarion]

Letters, 153 - to Peter Hastings

I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological — which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them so much). Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event

Lobes may be different, Fordim (also, donkeys are fertile, that's mule who's sterile ), but have you seen really and explicitly 'pointy' years? What would be the purpose? I suppose the 'outer' year - auricle, is some kind of a 'sound trap' - with the function of 'catching' and 'directing' the sound in. The pointed side has no biological function in the case, while lobes may have.

On the other hand, there is also:

Letters, 27 To the Houghton Mifflin Company

I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown).

But 'slightly' pointed is not what we've seen rubbed onto Arwen's ears in the movie. My friend has 'slightly' poinded ears, if you follow me, kind sirs and ladies.

cheers