Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[King of the North]

1st off thank you Argonath for agreeing with me by having the utmost respect for PJ. I myself think that scene was quite weak, Gandalf is of the Istari and would not cower before a fell servant of Sauron such as the Witch King

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Additionally, Gandalf's pre-human (if I may) history was eschewed in favor of a Man with wizardly powers ...

A very good point, and one that had not previously occured to me. I had always imagined Gandalf in the films as he is presented to us in Tolkien's works as a whole, ie as one of the Istari - a Maia with limitations on his powers. But, save for the reference at the end to him having completed his work in Middle-earth, there is no indication of his origins, and certainly no explanation of his nature. So those who are not widely read in Tolkien's works (ie 99.99% of film audiences) will simply see him as a human Wizard who sails off west with Frodo and Bilbo to live out his days in peace. Viewed in this way, maybe it makes more sense that the Witch King is more of a match for Gandalf, especially if one takes into account the suggestion that his powers have been enhanced to lead Sauron's forces into war.

Then again, this scene is only in the Extended Edition, and aren't the EEs supposed to be for the Tolkien fans - ie those who know that Gandalf is an Istar ...?

Originally Posted by King of the North

1st off thank you Argonath for agreeing with me by having the utmost respect for PJ. I myself think that scene was quite weak, Gandalf is of the Istari and would not cower before a fell servant of Sauron such as the Witch King

No problem! How can anyone not have respect for the man? He took the most difficult trilogy in the world, and created what I thought was impossible, even with today's technology.

On another note, in the Extended Version of the Return of the King, I really enjoyed the additional "Voice of Saruman" scene. I thought it was very neat that the movie gives a little nod to the "Scouring of the Shire" in the way Saruman and Wormtongue die. Even though Saruman's fall was a tad bit brutal, I really thought this scene should have made the theatrical cut. Perhaps it would have made up for the lack of Tom Bombadil .

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Argonath

I really thought this scene should have made the theatrical cut.

So did Christopher Lee.

[Essex]

regarding Saucepanman's point, I believe that the Book WK rode into Minas Tirith through the main gate as this had not been taken by an Enemy before? He could have easily flown in on his Nazgul, but wanted to be the first through the Gate so went on horseback. Maybe........

No one's mentioned Pippin in this scene. Having Gandalf on the floor we see Pippin's courage in trying to (but failing to) confront the Witch King.

Also, I know this can be seen as inconsistent, but I also think Jackson is showing that Gandalf is not all powerful or infallable. It shows that Gandalf himself seems unsure that he can beat him.

PS I agree with the point mentioned earlier on explaining the role of Merry's sword. That's one of the main reasons why I wanted the old forest / bombadil / barrow downs scenes in so he could get his Sword from Tom.

PPS Gandalf has grown since movie 1, so why not the Witch King?

PPPS Yes, Gandalf DID beat the Balrog but at what price? His Death.

PPPPS Saruman was a broken man already defeated, found out as a treasoner and therefore stripped of his powers as head of the Council before Gandalf broke his staff.

PPPPPS I'm only playing Devil's advocate here by the way.......

[narfforc]

I would like to add a few more points on this. Firstly on Weathertop Strider says "Sauron can put fire to evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it, AND FEAR THOSE WHO WIELD IT. Gandalf upon the Bridge of Khazad-Dum says "I am a servent of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor", he wasnt talking about the latest fireworks, and we keep forgetting Narya The Ring of Fire. Secondly I would like to point out a popular misquote, Obluquy says that Sauron is naught but an eyeball, that is but the Eye of Sauron, as The Mouth is something else. How can Gollum who was born well after the destruction of Saurons body at the end of The Second Age, know that there are only four fingers on the black hand, in The Black Gate is Closed he says "Yes, He has only four fingers on The Black Hand", surely if he had been refering to popular myth he would have said "had" not "has", it is because he has seen the physical body of Sauron, also Denethor states "that Sauron will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won", that suspended eyeball is going have fun travelling without any legs or maybe it will sprout imaginary wings like the Balrogs (Sorry got carried away, I mean no offence). Thirdly I think the idea of Sauron giving The Witch-King more power could be a possibilty, but my inner feeling says no. This is not Sauron of The Second Age, This is a much reduced Sauron, remember he put much of his power into the One Ring and he hasnt got that. Also he has expended an awful amount of power rebuilding his power base and body, I just do not think there would be much left, and if there was any he would need it for control, read the last pages of Mount Doom to find out what happens when Saurons will is withdrawn from his minions.

[obloquy]

Secondly I would like to point out a popular misquote, Obluquy says that Sauron is naught but an eyeball, that is but the Eye of Sauron, as The Mouth is something else.

In the movie, which is what we are talking about in this forum ("The Movies") and this thread, Sauron is just an eyeball. As for my personal feelings on this misconception, please see http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2387 and http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1878 .

Personally, I feel that PJ's motives with this scene (WK vs. Gf.) do not go beyond him attempting to portray Gandalf as a more compelling character by making him appear afraid and weak before the Witch King. Oftentimes, when a movie character is portrayed as basically infallable and all-powerful (which is how Gandalf the White was essentially portrayed in Tolkien's writing) it is thought to detract from the film, and the character is often seen as less interesting. In my opinion, Jackson's impetus in making Gandalf seem frightened and unsure, was to make his character, and the movie as a whole, a bit more interesting. In that vein, I can understand his desire to make Gandalf's character a bit more human and flawed. However, I feel that the vehicle he used to achieve that portrayal was far to extreme and inaccurate in regards to Gandalf as a Tolkien character.