Gandalf Vs. The Witch King - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Guinevere · 01-04-2005, 02:54 PM

This is one of the dramatic scenes that I had been looking forward to see in the EE - but I was disappointed, not to say shocked by the way PJ altered it.

I think I agree in most points with what Saucepanman wrote!
I didn't mind the Witchking appearing on the fell beast instead of on horseback, it actually makes more sense. But Gandalf lying helpless on the ground and the witchking breaking his staff is totally wrong!
Anyway, in FotR Gandalf was "spot on", but in RotK he is in several scenes not plausible to me anymore.

obloquy · 01-04-2005, 04:55 PM

Yeah, it sucks, but it had to be that way. Otherwise, how could Jackson have explained why Gandalf didn't just kick *** on the battlefield? We know that Gandalf limited his own participation because it was primarily the job of the Peoples of Middle-earth to fend off this evil, but that would've been a hard point to get across fairly in the movie. Gandalf is obviously the most powerful being on the good side, and since Sauron is naught but a giant eyeball hanging between two posts on the top of his tower, WK has to play the Most Powerful Bad Guy role. Additionally, Gandalf's pre-human (if I may) history was eschewed in favor of a Man with wizardly powers, and thus the battlefield is somewhat leveled between he and the Witch-King.

...who should have been Gandalf's BITCH-KING. LOL!!!!!

Boromir88 · 01-04-2005, 05:08 PM

I would say that if Gandalf had the chance, he would have beaten the WK. He did have a chance on Weathertop, but this was against all 9, and I can't see Gandalf doing anything except holding them off, and drawing some away like he did.

With that suspenseful scene at the Gate of Minas Tirith, if Rohan wouldn't have arrived then, and Gandalf and WK didn't just size eachother up and they fought, I would say Gandalf would have beaten the WK. However, this would go against the prophecy, so there for, the WK (maybe feeling overmatched) retreats to the battle, where he is slain by Eowyn, fulfilling the prophecy.

obloquy · 01-04-2005, 05:28 PM

It would not have gone against any prophecy for Gandalf to kill the Witch-King. If Eowyn isn't included in "Men", neither is Gandalf.

Gandalf would not have had any problem with all Nine, had he been willing to 'reveal himself in power' or however the Istari line goes. Like I said, it was the chore of the Peoples to deal with this, and Gandalf respected that.

Boromir88 · 01-04-2005, 06:01 PM

I'll try to clear up what I mean obloquy because I think my last post was a bit jumbled.

What I meant was if Gandalf actually fought the WK, physically fought, I think Gandalf would have beat him. But this would go against the prophecy. Therefor, Gandalf never actually fights the WK. They square off at the Gate, but Rohan arrives, and the WK backs out. I meant if Gandalf and the WK actually fought at the front gate I think Gandalf would have beaten them, but since this would go against the prophecy they don't fight.

I'm being reminded of when Earnur challenged the Witch-king. The WK answers the challenge, and Earnur rides off, and turns up dead. Where here this scene at the gate, what I think is Gandalf and the WK are squaring off, or they are sizing eachother up. So, either the WK feels overmatched by Gandalf, or he thinks it's more important to command the armies against Rohan's charge, which is why he retreats.

I hope that cleared things up. Basically, I'm trying to say IF Gandalf ever fought the WK one on one, he would beat the WK. However, since the prophecy says no man would kill the WK," and that's why Gandalf and the WK never fight eachother. Because, if they did, Gandalf, I think, with his record would have won.

the phantom · 01-04-2005, 06:04 PM

Here's how the Witch King's power was handled in the movie.

1) Aragorn chases him away by waving a branch around and yelling. Witch King's apparent power: low

2) Gandalf is thrown on the ground and has his staff broken and looks scared. Witch King's apparent power: very high

3) A hobbit cuts his leg and he kneels down for ten minutes and waits for Eowyn to stab him in the head. Witch King's apparent power: low

A bit inconsistent, eh?

The remedy....

1) Have the wraiths retreat more quickly when Aragorn comes, then have him explain to the hobbits that they figured their work was pretty much done since they had stabbed Frodo.

2) I didn't mind this scene too much. The WK had to be big and bad and this scene made him look it.

3) Explain that Merry's sword is the nastiest anti-Witch King blade in the world.

obloquy · 01-04-2005, 07:04 PM

I would like to reiterate that Gandalf defeating the Witch-King would not run counter to the prophecy. If Eowyn doesn't count as a man, Gandalf doesn't either. Glorfindel's prophecy introduces a loophole that masks the true bane of the Witch-King. That obscurity could allow just about anybody but a male of the race of Men (with the possible but arguable inclusion of Hobbits) to slay the Witch-King.

01-04-2005, 02:54 PM	#1
Guinevere Banshee of Camelot Join Date: May 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 5,830	This is one of the dramatic scenes that I had been looking forward to see in the EE - but I was disappointed, not to say shocked by the way PJ altered it. I think I agree in most points with what Saucepanman wrote! I didn't mind the Witchking appearing on the fell beast instead of on horseback, it actually makes more sense. But Gandalf lying helpless on the ground and the witchking breaking his staff is totally wrong! Anyway, in FotR Gandalf was "spot on", but in RotK he is in several scenes not plausible to me anymore. __________________ Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat!

01-04-2005, 06:04 PM	#6
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Here's how the Witch King's power was handled in the movie. 1) Aragorn chases him away by waving a branch around and yelling. Witch King's apparent power: low 2) Gandalf is thrown on the ground and has his staff broken and looks scared. Witch King's apparent power: very high 3) A hobbit cuts his leg and he kneels down for ten minutes and waits for Eowyn to stab him in the head. Witch King's apparent power: low A bit inconsistent, eh? The remedy.... 1) Have the wraiths retreat more quickly when Aragorn comes, then have him explain to the hobbits that they figured their work was pretty much done since they had stabbed Frodo. 2) I didn't mind this scene too much. The WK had to be big and bad and this scene made him look it. 3) Explain that Merry's sword is the nastiest anti-Witch King blade in the world. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

01-04-2005, 04:55 PM	#2
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	Yeah, it sucks, but it had to be that way. Otherwise, how could Jackson have explained why Gandalf didn't just kick *** on the battlefield? We know that Gandalf limited his own participation because it was primarily the job of the Peoples of Middle-earth to fend off this evil, but that would've been a hard point to get across fairly in the movie. Gandalf is obviously the most powerful being on the good side, and since Sauron is naught but a giant eyeball hanging between two posts on the top of his tower, WK has to play the Most Powerful Bad Guy role. Additionally, Gandalf's pre-human (if I may) history was eschewed in favor of a Man with wizardly powers, and thus the battlefield is somewhat leveled between he and the Witch-King. ...who should have been Gandalf's BITCH-KING. LOL!!!!!

01-04-2005, 05:08 PM	#3
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	I would say that if Gandalf had the chance, he would have beaten the WK. He did have a chance on Weathertop, but this was against all 9, and I can't see Gandalf doing anything except holding them off, and drawing some away like he did. With that suspenseful scene at the Gate of Minas Tirith, if Rohan wouldn't have arrived then, and Gandalf and WK didn't just size eachother up and they fought, I would say Gandalf would have beaten the WK. However, this would go against the prophecy, so there for, the WK (maybe feeling overmatched) retreats to the battle, where he is slain by Eowyn, fulfilling the prophecy.

01-04-2005, 05:28 PM	#4
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	It would not have gone against any prophecy for Gandalf to kill the Witch-King. If Eowyn isn't included in "Men", neither is Gandalf. Gandalf would not have had any problem with all Nine, had he been willing to 'reveal himself in power' or however the Istari line goes. Like I said, it was the chore of the Peoples to deal with this, and Gandalf respected that.

01-04-2005, 06:01 PM	#5
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	I'll try to clear up what I mean obloquy because I think my last post was a bit jumbled. What I meant was if Gandalf actually fought the WK, physically fought, I think Gandalf would have beat him. But this would go against the prophecy. Therefor, Gandalf never actually fights the WK. They square off at the Gate, but Rohan arrives, and the WK backs out. I meant if Gandalf and the WK actually fought at the front gate I think Gandalf would have beaten them, but since this would go against the prophecy they don't fight. I'm being reminded of when Earnur challenged the Witch-king. The WK answers the challenge, and Earnur rides off, and turns up dead. Where here this scene at the gate, what I think is Gandalf and the WK are squaring off, or they are sizing eachother up. So, either the WK feels overmatched by Gandalf, or he thinks it's more important to command the armies against Rohan's charge, which is why he retreats. I hope that cleared things up. Basically, I'm trying to say IF Gandalf ever fought the WK one on one, he would beat the WK. However, since the prophecy says no man would kill the WK," and that's why Gandalf and the WK never fight eachother. Because, if they did, Gandalf, I think, with his record would have won.

01-04-2005, 07:04 PM	#7
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	I would like to reiterate that Gandalf defeating the Witch-King would not run counter to the prophecy. If Eowyn doesn't count as a man, Gandalf doesn't either. Glorfindel's prophecy introduces a loophole that masks the true bane of the Witch-King. That obscurity could allow just about anybody but a male of the race of Men (with the possible but arguable inclusion of Hobbits) to slay the Witch-King.