Bombadil's brooch - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

arcticstorm · 01-02-2005, 09:10 PM

When I read through this passage, Tom's tone of voice and wording almost sounds somber as if he is mourning for the loss of this person as if they were really close.
Assuming that the Barrow downs and with them the Barrow wights began their existence in the war that lasted from TA 1409- TA 1975, we can tell from the Adventures of Tom Bombadil that Tom didn't marry Goldberry until sometime after that point, because the Barrow-Wight attempted to "kill" him. Tom married Goldberry after this time. It would indeed be odd for him, being "alive" from the beginning, to be unmarried until about TA 2000.
Obviously, the person this brooch belonged to, is one that Tom highly admired, or even deeply loved,
"Goldberry will where it now, and we will not forget her"-- Tom Bombadil

If it is to be assumed that the Barrow-wight could heve killed Tom if he would have let him, what is saying that the Wight couldn't have killed Tom's former wife, if indeed he had one. Tom isn't omniscient , he needed Frodo to call for his help to even be able to come help the hobbits. if his former wife was wandering alone and taken by the wight to the barrow, she may not have been able to call for help, think about Sam, Merry, and Pippen. I do not think everything in the barrow was buried with him, maybe some of the treasure came from his victims.
Therefore, I think this brooch came from Tom's former wife, who is never mentioned or alluded to in the story but is a high possibility.

Thinlómien · 11-01-2006, 04:53 AM

All I can say is that this would make a fabulous RPG.

ninja91 · 11-01-2006, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

All I can say is that this would make a fabulous RPG.

Aye, I'll drink to that.

Bêthberry · 11-01-2006, 11:48 AM

Why don't we just imagine that Tom's first wife is kept hidden away in an upstairs room somewhere, unbeknownst to Goldberry?

Alcuin · 11-01-2006, 01:28 PM

Although no mention is made of it so that it might have been left behind in Arnor or Rivendell, it is quite possible that Elendil wore the Ring of Barahir to Mordor, and that Isildur took it along with the shards of Narsil with him to the Gladden Fields. He gave the shards of Narsil and its sheath to “Ohtar,” who is described as “dear to Isildur and of his own kin,” (Unfinished Tales, “The Disaster of the Gladden Fields”, footnote 17), so it is possible that the Ring of Barahir was also saved by Ohtar or one of his companions.

The war of III 1409 launched by Angmar against Rhudaur, Cardolan and Arthedain was ruinous. The spartan description (in Return of the King, “Appendix A”) seems to indicate that Angmar’s main force struck south across the Hoarwell into Rhudaur, then crossing the Hoarwell again (probably at the Last Bridge) swept into Cardolan from the east, surrounding and destroying Amon Sûl along the way. “A remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or took refuge in the [Old] Forest behind.” (Ibid.) That suggests that not all the Dúnedain of Cardolan were “faithful,” but it also strongly suggests that the people who remained in the towns and fields (i.e., farms and homesteads) were slaughtered.

Since the brooch was buried with a woman entombed with the “last prince of Cardolan, who fell in the war of 1409” (that citation was settled by Amarie), it is likely, as Evisse has already demonstrated, that the woman was a close kinswoman or even the wife of that “last prince,” and that she was murdered along with the rest of the people who were captured. She was a noblewoman, someone whom Bombadil (and Goldberry, too, from Tom’s words) plainly recalled with fondness; and as she was a noblewoman, it seems reasonable that she would have taken refuge in a fortification guarded by a garrison. The regular fortifications of Cardolan were overrun by Angmar (the survivors had to hide out in the barrows and the Old Forest, remember?), and if she were captured, it is likely that her death was horrifically cruel.

Bombadil shows a particular interest in the goings-on of Buckland and The Marish, with Farmer Maggot supplying him much of his current information. He seems also to have shown that kind of interest in Cardolan. (Aragorn knew him personally: “‘I need not repeat all that they said to old Bombadil...’” Fellowship of the Ring, “Strider”).

Raynor · 11-01-2006, 01:48 PM

Alcuin, I have troubles picturing the faithful Dunedain taking refuge in the fortifications of the sacred tombs of their forefathers, if that is what you implied.

As always, your post is well documented and on point. Let me extend to you a warm welcome on this site!

Alcuin · 11-01-2006, 02:01 PM

Thank you, Raynor. I look forward to participating with you and so many other excellent denizens of the Barrow-Downs.

I suspect that hiding in the barrows was a necessity of life-or-death. In such straits, the Dúnedain would have been foolish to forego the barrows as strongholds, whether they were ancient (from the First Age Edain and their kinsfolk who remained in Eriador) or newer (from burials of the Dúnedain in the Third Age). In any case, Lord of the Rings is our source for this citation.

Lalwendë · 11-03-2006, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Why don't we just imagine that Tom's first wife is kept hidden away in an upstairs room somewhere, unbeknownst to Goldberry?

And of course this gives the opportunity for a fan-fic entitled The Wide Sargasso Withywindle...

The finding of the brooch and what Tom says is one of those small, yet incredibly touching moments in the story - the brooch is in effect a tangible reminder of a dim and distant past, a reminder of mortality and long faded beauty. Having puzzled over who may have owned the brooch and why Tom may have taken it, I have come to the conclusion that what Tom does and says is simply out there by Tolkien as an intensely poetic moment. Maybe it is even a metaphor for story - that many years later a fragment of a life may be found in just a few words and then be taken up and passed on...

Of course, Merry does have his dream while in the Barrow that he was one of the people killed there - at night, a spear in his heart. The Barrow-downs seem to be a place which is liminal, outside normal concepts of time (as is Lothlorien) judging by Merry's experience (and so do all the Hobbits when they fall asleep in the lee of the Megalith), so when Tom finds the brooch he could quite literally be remembering a woman he did just 'see'.

Anyway, onward to the solid topic of hiding out in tombs.

Reading the new Companion and Guide I was delighted to find out that Tolkien did indeed have an interest in archaeology and ancient history. So he wrote with some knowledge and it is true that in reality people did use passage tombs as hideouts and for other purposes such as for hiding loot and storing food. Fogous are quite enigmatic in this respect as evidence of storage has been found in them, however they also appear to have been built for ritual purposes; passage tombs were not just used as sombre burial places, the people would hold feasts on the threshold to honour their ancestors - many cultures are not at all squeamish about sharing living space with the dead, in fact it is an honour (and Gondorians certainly spend a lot of time thinking about tombs and they have them in their city, too, close to them).

Passage Tombs and creeps and the like were also built to exacting standards and were (are) not often damp, nor prone to flooding. And owing to general superstitions surrounding tombs and graves (no matter how old they are, tales linger on) people might assume, rightly or wrongly, that a graveyard would be a perfect place to hide out as their enemies would never consider they would be so desperate as to choose such a frightening and possibly gruesome place to seek refuge.

It's annoying me now, as there is a well known legend of someone hiding out in a passage tomb (as distinct from ordinary Barrows, which do not have open entrances - or do not now, anyway!). That's in addition to all the tales of Arthur and Merlin living in tombs, waiting for the day they are needed again.

Raynor · 11-03-2006, 02:06 PM

I believe that the whole history of Numenor, Gondor and Arnor shows a huge respect for the burrial grounds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letter #154

In their way the Men of Gondor were similar: a withering people whose only 'hallows' were their tombs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letter #156

But in a kind of Noachian situation the small party of the Faithful in Numenor, under the leadership of Elendil, Isildur and Anarion ... established a kind of diminished memory of Numenor in Exile on the coasts of Middle-earth – inheriting ... the yearning for longevity, and the habit of embalming and the building of splendid tombs – their only 'hallows': or almost so.

Seeing that these lasting dunedain are called "faithful", I believe that they remain true to the core values of their kin.
Also, even if some tombs are not prone to floodings, that can be easily accomplished with some engineering efforts - cannals, small dams around the barrows or whatever. Also, I don't think that the orcs would have excluded the barrows from their suspicion list, seeing how they demonise their opponents. I found your refference to the barrows being closed constructions very interesting. From what I saw around the internet, it does seem that at least nowadays they are so, perhaps they were so from the begining, so as to avoid looting or profanation from animals.

Lalwendë · 11-03-2006, 03:37 PM

Indeed, there is huge respect for burial grounds in Middle-earth, in most of the cultures. I think that this sense of respect might in fact have led to feelings of superstition, even suspicion in cultures further down the line, and in other less respectful cultures, so this may have contributed to why these people thought the Downs would be a good place to hide. Even Orcs have their beliefs which would lead to superstition and an unwillingness not only to search the Downs for people but to even consider them as a likely hiding place!

Barrows (back in the real world now) were built over many thousands of years and by various cultures (as indeed they were in Middle-earth, as the Rohirrim still used them), by Iron Age and older cultures, but also by the Saxons and Vikings. So they had a lot of differences; there is also evidence that some very old ones could have bee re-used thousands of years later. Anyway...there are Barrows that seemed to be simple burials underneath mounds of earth, others that had openings which were sealed at a later date, and still more that remained open always - open in the sense that the way in could be seen, though it would be closed with stones or earth. Some 'Barrows' were not just burial places but also were used for other purposes.

Most of the looting would have taken place in later years sadly, by antiquarians, on whom the old tales of demons, witches and spooks would have no effect in scaring them off! Not all of them were as careful as archaeologists are today.

As for animals eating the flesh of the deceased, one of the old ways of burial was excarnation - whereby the corpse would be laid out where the elements might eat away the flesh from the bones; in some cases consumption by animals was avoided by enclosing bodies (like the Zoroastrian Towers of Silence in Iran and Tibetan Sky Burials - though birds would be allowed access), but in other cultures and times (e.g. in Britain in some periods), consumption by animals would be viewed as proper. I believe some saints' bones were also preserved.

Anyway I digress now I'm onto my hobbyhorse...the main point I suppose is that burial practices of other cultures can often be quite stomach churning which leads inevitably to suspicion and superstition, and that may have been why these Men took the chance to hide out in the Downs, which may have been a comforting place to them, being the 'home' to their ancestors.

11-01-2006, 04:53 AM	#2
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	All I can say is that this would make a fabulous RPG. __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

11-01-2006, 11:48 AM	#4
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Why don't we just imagine that Tom's first wife is kept hidden away in an upstairs room somewhere, unbeknownst to Goldberry? __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

11-03-2006, 03:37 PM	#10
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Indeed, there is huge respect for burial grounds in Middle-earth, in most of the cultures. I think that this sense of respect might in fact have led to feelings of superstition, even suspicion in cultures further down the line, and in other less respectful cultures, so this may have contributed to why these people thought the Downs would be a good place to hide. Even Orcs have their beliefs which would lead to superstition and an unwillingness not only to search the Downs for people but to even consider them as a likely hiding place! Barrows (back in the real world now) were built over many thousands of years and by various cultures (as indeed they were in Middle-earth, as the Rohirrim still used them), by Iron Age and older cultures, but also by the Saxons and Vikings. So they had a lot of differences; there is also evidence that some very old ones could have bee re-used thousands of years later. Anyway...there are Barrows that seemed to be simple burials underneath mounds of earth, others that had openings which were sealed at a later date, and still more that remained open always - open in the sense that the way in could be seen, though it would be closed with stones or earth. Some 'Barrows' were not just burial places but also were used for other purposes. Most of the looting would have taken place in later years sadly, by antiquarians, on whom the old tales of demons, witches and spooks would have no effect in scaring them off! Not all of them were as careful as archaeologists are today. As for animals eating the flesh of the deceased, one of the old ways of burial was excarnation - whereby the corpse would be laid out where the elements might eat away the flesh from the bones; in some cases consumption by animals was avoided by enclosing bodies (like the Zoroastrian Towers of Silence in Iran and Tibetan Sky Burials - though birds would be allowed access), but in other cultures and times (e.g. in Britain in some periods), consumption by animals would be viewed as proper. I believe some saints' bones were also preserved. Anyway I digress now I'm onto my hobbyhorse...the main point I suppose is that burial practices of other cultures can often be quite stomach churning which leads inevitably to suspicion and superstition, and that may have been why these Men took the chance to hide out in the Downs, which may have been a comforting place to them, being the 'home' to their ancestors. __________________ Gordon's alive!

01-02-2005, 09:10 PM	#1
arcticstorm Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Johnson Bible College: Knoxville, TN Posts: 464	When I read through this passage, Tom's tone of voice and wording almost sounds somber as if he is mourning for the loss of this person as if they were really close. Assuming that the Barrow downs and with them the Barrow wights began their existence in the war that lasted from TA 1409- TA 1975, we can tell from the Adventures of Tom Bombadil that Tom didn't marry Goldberry until sometime after that point, because the Barrow-Wight attempted to "kill" him. Tom married Goldberry after this time. It would indeed be odd for him, being "alive" from the beginning, to be unmarried until about TA 2000. Obviously, the person this brooch belonged to, is one that Tom highly admired, or even deeply loved, "Goldberry will where it now, and we will not forget her"-- Tom Bombadil If it is to be assumed that the Barrow-wight could heve killed Tom if he would have let him, what is saying that the Wight couldn't have killed Tom's former wife, if indeed he had one. Tom isn't omniscient , he needed Frodo to call for his help to even be able to come help the hobbits. if his former wife was wandering alone and taken by the wight to the barrow, she may not have been able to call for help, think about Sam, Merry, and Pippen. I do not think everything in the barrow was buried with him, maybe some of the treasure came from his victims. Therefore, I think this brooch came from Tom's former wife, who is never mentioned or alluded to in the story but is a high possibility. Last edited by arcticstorm; 05-06-2005 at 01:18 PM.

11-01-2006, 01:28 PM	#5
Alcuin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Nurn Posts: 73	Although no mention is made of it so that it might have been left behind in Arnor or Rivendell, it is quite possible that Elendil wore the Ring of Barahir to Mordor, and that Isildur took it along with the shards of Narsil with him to the Gladden Fields. He gave the shards of Narsil and its sheath to “Ohtar,” who is described as “dear to Isildur and of his own kin,” (Unfinished Tales, “The Disaster of the Gladden Fields”, footnote 17), so it is possible that the Ring of Barahir was also saved by Ohtar or one of his companions. The war of III 1409 launched by Angmar against Rhudaur, Cardolan and Arthedain was ruinous. The spartan description (in Return of the King, “Appendix A”) seems to indicate that Angmar’s main force struck south across the Hoarwell into Rhudaur, then crossing the Hoarwell again (probably at the Last Bridge) swept into Cardolan from the east, surrounding and destroying Amon Sûl along the way. “A remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or took refuge in the [Old] Forest behind.” (Ibid.) That suggests that not all the Dúnedain of Cardolan were “faithful,” but it also strongly suggests that the people who remained in the towns and fields (i.e., farms and homesteads) were slaughtered. Since the brooch was buried with a woman entombed with the “last prince of Cardolan, who fell in the war of 1409” (that citation was settled by Amarie), it is likely, as Evisse has already demonstrated, that the woman was a close kinswoman or even the wife of that “last prince,” and that she was murdered along with the rest of the people who were captured. She was a noblewoman, someone whom Bombadil (and Goldberry, too, from Tom’s words) plainly recalled with fondness; and as she was a noblewoman, it seems reasonable that she would have taken refuge in a fortification guarded by a garrison. The regular fortifications of Cardolan were overrun by Angmar (the survivors had to hide out in the barrows and the Old Forest, remember?), and if she were captured, it is likely that her death was horrifically cruel. Bombadil shows a particular interest in the goings-on of Buckland and The Marish, with Farmer Maggot supplying him much of his current information. He seems also to have shown that kind of interest in Cardolan. (Aragorn knew him personally: “‘I need not repeat all that they said to old Bombadil...’” Fellowship of the Ring, “Strider”).

11-01-2006, 01:48 PM	#6
Raynor Eagle of the Star Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sarmisegethuza Posts: 1,058	Alcuin, I have troubles picturing the faithful Dunedain taking refuge in the fortifications of the sacred tombs of their forefathers, if that is what you implied. As always, your post is well documented and on point. Let me extend to you a warm welcome on this site!

11-01-2006, 02:01 PM	#7
Alcuin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Nurn Posts: 73	Thank you, Raynor. I look forward to participating with you and so many other excellent denizens of the Barrow-Downs. I suspect that hiding in the barrows was a necessity of life-or-death. In such straits, the Dúnedain would have been foolish to forego the barrows as strongholds, whether they were ancient (from the First Age Edain and their kinsfolk who remained in Eriador) or newer (from burials of the Dúnedain in the Third Age). In any case, Lord of the Rings is our source for this citation.