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01-02-2005, 07:50 PM
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The Kinslayer
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 658
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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01-03-2005, 07:22 AM
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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Posted by Maédhros:
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Regarding your changes in §40a and §40c: I could not find any change introduced by you in §40a. Please explain what you meant to change. In §40c I found an error in my editing which I have corrected (bad idea I know, sorry) (The halfe sentence "{ and Gwendelin went forth from the places of her abode{and}" must not be added, if we are going to delet it, and the "{" before RD-SL-23 had slipt in unintentionly.) To make things cleraer I will give my text here in plain text Quote:
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Respectfully Findegil |
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01-05-2005, 11:27 AM
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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RD-EX-51:
Findegil wrote: Quote:
RD-SL-20: I was talking about this: Quote:
RD-EX-58 Findegil wrote: Quote:
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Actually, though, I don't really see "somehow" as doing any canonical or story-line work. What is the difference between "they contrived it" and "somehow they contrived it"? If "they contrived it" then clearly "somehow they contrived it". And why should it be so important that we indicate to the reader that we do not know the precise manner of the contrivance? I see nothing wrong with simply stating that "they contrived it" and nothing more. The problem I see with removing "somehow" is another one - specifically, it seems to me to be a stylistic revision, and that is something we have specifically decided not to engage in. Yet we have already accepted minimal emendations that are surely stylistic; and clearly the sentence as we have it is not something Tolkien would have let stand in a narrative. So in the end I lean toward my former proposal, removing "somehow". Findegil wrote: Quote:
RD-EX-60 Findegil wrote: Quote:
But I do see now (looking at TN) that we are making a jump backward in time that is not made in the original. So if you and Maedhros feel that the "wehn" is necessary, I can accept it. RD-EX-63 Findegil wrote: Quote:
§40b Findegil wrote: Quote:
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In most cases, it is the deletion of a piece of text that brings it away from Tolkien's intention, and that's why it's normally advisable to keep as much as we can. But we see that in cases like this one, the retention of the text brings it away from Tolkien's intention, because though the words are retained, their meaning is altered. That's why I want to delete the reference to the Orcs. About names: Naugladur can surely stand. Nielthi: I'm not sure what the etymology of this would be, but at least there are no phonological problems that I'm aware of. It can stand. Bodruith: I remember now my objection to the name. According to "Names in the Lost Tales" in II, GL glosses "bodruith" as "revenge". Christopher Tolkien speculates (quite plausibly, I think) that the Lord of Belegost received this name as a result of his actions in TN. Since this part has been removed from our version, I would drop the name. |
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01-05-2005, 03:45 PM
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#4 | ||||
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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RD-EX-51:
If you say the sentence is grammatically okay I can accept that with some reluctance. In that case every thing we would do seems to be an stylistic change. But the awkwardness of the sentence was, in my view at least, brought about by our deletions. Wouldn't it be possible to change the word order: "Now one there was, Fangluin the aged, and he did{ he} jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." For me that sounds much more natural. RD-SL-20: I have accepted that we do not use any treason by elves from Doriath, but with this phrase we would turn the story to its head. Do you agree with me, that based on the sources we have JRR Tolkien denied the possibility that treason would overcome the girdle? Now what you suggest, would mean that the Dwarves did see a chance to over come the girdle of Melian if they could have found a traitor from Doriath. This believe of the Dwarves would not be gainsaid in our text at all. The simplest interpretation of such an text would be, that the Dwarves did not find a traitor. This would deny even the possibility of treason among the Sindar as the story goes. In my view that would makes the story to explicit. RD-EX-58: Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
§37a: Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
Tolkien surely would not have used the words as they stand now, but it is more than likely that he would have device the way by which the dwarves managed to lure Thingol outside the girdle, if ever he had written the story. But we are not Tolkien and we will not device that way. Thus, as it is, we are left only with the statement that nobody (not even Tolkien, who without any doubt had the greatest knowledge of all about Middle-Earth) did know the "how". I think that we should make that clear, and in my view the least we should do, is stick to that "somehow". If you find that better we could expand it like this: Quote:
Okay, so we all agree that she must leave before the dwarves attack. It would be nice to hear if you both do agree with my second version of that story given in post #11 at the end. RD-EX-60: I at least feel a strong desire to introduce that "when". RD-EX-63: Okay, you took a different view to the sentence. Now at long last, I see your problem. I the problem I have is that with your options the growing cry becomes more strange to me. What if we try to find a word to fit the lacunae? I suggest: "But the Dwarves held on their way, and >RD-EX-63 <TN there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise {...}enforced by the clash of steel." §40: Good arguments. I agree, that in view of them we should skip the Orcs. Thus we will get: Quote:
Naugladur: That's nice. Nielthi: Do we need an etymology for each and every name we want to hold? Bodruith: Agreed he is skipped out of our version. Respectfully Findegil |
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01-06-2005, 10:52 AM
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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RD-EX-51
Findegil wrote: Quote:
RD-SL-20 We ought to try to be clear about this. Why did we delete the element of the treachery? I can think of two possible reasons: 1. In the later legendarium, Elvish treachery would not be sufficient to bypass the Girdle. 2. In the later legendarium, Elvish treachery is impossibly unlikely. I had thought that our justification for the change was 2. If this is the case, then nothing has altered the fact that Elvish treachery would overcome the Girdle, and so the hypothetical statement would be fine. But perhaps it is not so clear that reason 2 was our justification. If 1 is also a concern, then I agree that the line should be dropped. §37a I must say again that I don't see the "somehow" as doing any good for us. Your expanded proposal ("No tale tells . . .") is better in that regard. But I wonder whether it's going too far - besides the fact that it alters the text, it invents the fact that no tale tells more of the luring of Thingol outside the Girdle. But surely the full tale of the Necklace of the Woe of Thingol does give a full account. Quote:
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If I understand what you intend, would perhaps this work: Quote:
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01-07-2005, 07:30 PM
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#6 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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RD-EX-51:
The Original sentence reads "Yet now did Fangluin jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." and this clearly is less awkward then "... and did he jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." or not. Our changes were made to in cooperate the descriptive introduction of Fangluin the aged with his action at the return of the smiths. After reading again the original, I think we should use "...and now did he jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." It is even nearer to the original than to leave out the "now". Is that a way we are all happy with? RD-SL-20: It took use a long time to workout that difference in the reasons for leaving the treacherous Elves out! Reason 1 is the only valid point in my view. If treachery would have been sufficient to bypass the Girdle, then I do not see why JRR Tolkien would have felt any need to change the story at all. Treachery of Elves by Elves was one of the things spoken of in the prophecy of the north and Thingol had enmeshed himself and his realm in the doom of the Noldor by taking the Silmaril. Thus I don't think it is in any way impossible for the Elves of Doriath to be treacherous. Thus I still think the line should be dropped. §37a: Point taken. “No tale tells …” is to much writing our point of view into the story. On the other hand it is really true: There was never a tale written that did tell this “how”. What about a clearer statement of the Narrator: “In these later days it is not known how …”? But I don’t think that will do. In the end if you are adamant on skipping the “somehow” I can go with that, since the passage will clearly be discussed at length in the Appendix to this chapter. And there we can much clearer say what we could only hint at in the text, that Tolkien never wrote down how he envisaged the luring of the dwarves and possibly never made up his mind about that point. Concerning Melians departure: If you agree to it we will take my second proposal. Then Melian departed -> Thus Melian departed: Agreed. RD-EX-63: “enforced” was only the best I could find, which was not good in itself. “strengthened” is okay for me. Respectfully Findegil |
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01-08-2005, 12:13 AM
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#7 |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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RD-EX-51
I think that perhaps I misread the original. The deletion of "Yet now" does seem to make it more awkward. We can use " . . . and now did he jeer at them mightily on their return". RD-SL-20 It seems the point was clear in your mind, then; but it is not so to me. I wonder what Maedhros thinks. In any case, I don't think that the prophecy of the North has such bearing on the Sindar; it foretold treachery among the Noldor, not among all Elves. §37a "No tale tells": is it really true? It is externally - that is, no text written by Tolkien gives us the proper tale. But if we make the statement in the text, its purport is internal. That is, it would assert that no tale written in Arda tells how the Dwarves contrived the luring of Thingol. This is not likely to be true, considering the existence of the Atanatarion. |
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12-02-2007, 06:20 PM
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#8 | |
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Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Armenelos
Posts: 37
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Even so, the problem of final -i in mature Sindarin is enough to cause the name to be entirely dropped in my opinion, especially in the case of such a minor character whose name is only used a couple times. I very much doubt that Nielthi's name was intended to be the infinitive form of a verb *nielth-, which is the only thing it could be in Sindarin as later envisioned by Tolkien. An adjective form Nielthui might work, but this would be rather pointless: the name, while working with the morphophonology of later Sindarin, would be changed unnecessarily from the original, and its meaning wouldn't be at all clear. But if you want to retain it, I believe that is the only way it could be done. Again, better to just eliminate it altogether.
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"Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time ye will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you." —Eru Ilúvatar Last edited by Tar-Telperien; 12-02-2007 at 06:39 PM. |
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12-03-2007, 12:40 PM
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#9 | |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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What you suggests, Tar-Telperien, is:
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Findegil |
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12-03-2007, 10:05 PM
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#10 |
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Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Armenelos
Posts: 37
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Yes, I do suggest that. It works well enough, better than an obsolete Sindarin name.
__________________
"Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time ye will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you." —Eru Ilúvatar |
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12-16-2007, 07:18 PM
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#11 |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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I also can find no Sindarin names ending in -i (after an admittedly quick search). I suppose there's sufficient doubt about the name, then, that it should be excised.
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