Are you a better person?

[littlemanpoet]

It also has opened my eyes much more to mankind's blatant disregard to the Earth and nature. Especially the Elves' attitute toward nature, has made me look at our own and say, 'wow, this is wrong! We're really screwing ourselves up by doing that!'

and they certainly haven't affected me spiritually.

You must mean "spiritually" in a strictly religious sense, because the "opened eyes" and having been made to look and say "this is wrong", are spiritual responses, don't you think?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Thank you all for the very intriguing responses to my rather consciously 'loaded' question. In particular, thanks to lmp for really bringing out the central issue of "humility" here. As I read through the posts it's interesting to note that pretty much everyone is saying "Yes, I am better for having read the book" but no-one wants to do anything so lofty (or so flaky) as to indulge in self-congratulatory celebrations of how great we've all become.

I, for one, firmly believe in the educative and improving nature of all reading acts, if these acts are undertaken in intelligence and with an open mind. Such an approach, when in response to a text as rewarding as LotR, cannot be anything but a Good Thing.

I am a better person for having read LotR. It has opened my mind, as I said above, to a point of view different from my own. It has given me endless hours of pleasure. It has helped me make any number of improving friendships with other people who love the book as I do (most of them here at the Downs). I don't think that me admitting this is any lack of humility on my part (at least, I hope not) quite the reverse -- I think that admitting to being improved by a book is acknowlegement of all the ways in which I can be improved.

But this leads me to more questions: I am being improved by the book, or am I improving myself in response to the book? Is there a specific kind of Middle-earth improvement that I cannot gain from any other book, or is it merely one pathway among many to the same place? Are those of us who are made better by the book, or who better ourselves in resonse to the book, better in the same way? Is there a bit of Tolkien in all of us, or are we just rising to a challenge presented by the book in our own unique ways?

[elronds_daughter]

I think I tend to take on traits of certain characters, especially those characters that I particularly admire (e.g. Eowyn). As for 'better', though, I'm not sure. Probably, but since I have no idea where I'd be if I hadn't read LotR, I can't tell for sure. Besides that, any future that we "see" is only a future that might be. What we are is what we are, and, for good or ill, we can't change it; we can change what we choose to become.


Well, that was unusually 'deep' for me.... Strange, I'm not usually like that.... Must've been something about your questions, Fordim....

[littlemanpoet]

Is there a specific kind of Middle-earth improvement that I cannot gain from any other book, or is it merely one pathway among many to the same place?

Eucatastrophe. Perhaps it exists in other books, but I haven't been affected by this in other books as I have in LotR. This is one way in which I became better than I was. I had given way to despair (for various reasons that are not to the point), and partly through the book, and partly through a certain BD discussion thread, I was reminded of the hope in LotR, that some kind of good can come out of seemingly insurmountable evil. Hope has been a re-starting point for a personal renaissance of the spirit.

Are those of us who are made better by the book, or who better ourselves in response to the book, better in the same way?

In part yes, in part no. The former is passive, something that happens to us, whereas the latter is something we do ourselves. That has to account for some difference. Don't you think that being made better (a realization), must precede choosing to be better (conscious action)?

Is there a bit of Tolkien in all of us, or are we just rising to a challenge presented by the book in our own unique ways?

There's a level at which, obviously, there's a bit of Tolkien in all of us, in that we share humanity; but I think you're shooting for something more specific. There seems to me to be a lot of middle ground between your either and or in this question. Might you clarify it?

[Nukapei]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

You must mean "spiritually" in a strictly religious sense, because the "opened eyes" and having been made to look and say "this is wrong", are spiritual responses, don't you think?

Oops! Yes, I guess I did. I'm not into anything "new age", so to me "spiritually" means "religion". I thought being affected "spiritually" meant being more religious because of, I don't know, seeing the way the Valar and Illuvatar interacted with the peoples of Arda? Or becoming not-so-religious because of the role of the Valar et co. making me more inclined to view all religions, including real ones, as just another work of myth? It seems stupid, really, but that's the first thing that popped into my mind. I didn't really examine the thought that much, I was too worried about the nature thing. Sorry!

[THE Ka]

Not really. No 'major primetime newsblock' changes...

But, at the age of 11, I soon learned that not all hobbits were like Bilbo , and that there were many different types of people with many different challenges to face.



I hope that counts...

I think there's more but, I might have to have a memory meeting with my eleven-year-old self...

~Ka~

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Fordim

Is there a bit of Tolkien in all of us, or are we just rising to a challenge presented by the book in our own unique ways?

I have to pull out Fordim's question here because it's such a good one. I've been thinking about this a fair bit lately, and whether there is indeed some common characteristic shared by Tolkien fans. By Tolkien fans, I don't mean someone who has read the books and purely enjoyed them, I mean Tolkien fans like myself who take delight in delving deeply into the texts, discussing them and coming up with mad ideas and theories, i.e. someone fan enough to be a member of a site like this.

We are all different, and while some of us respond most to the linguistic elements, some of us look for spiritual/religious significance, and I often look for echoes to folklore and history. But what unites us all, surely, is the love of detail?

Tolkien was himself very much concerned with detail. He was a philologist and an academic, hence professionally required to be concerned with seemingly tiny details, and his work is literally crammed with details and references, so many that you could easily spend your whole life searching these out, as indeed many of us have done. Do we all love detail? Yes, we might all be entirely capable of seeing the 'bigger picture' as t'were, but I think, deep inside of all of us, there's something of the philologist, the theologian, the mathematician, even the pedant (I admit it, I can be one quite often ). We all bring somthing unique to the books, but I think they do indeed appeal to that obsessive streak within us all.

[Lush]

I doubt I became an overall better person (I just degenerate with age), but in a more specific way, I think reading Tolkien helped me become a better writer.

I've had the chance to closely examine what it is I like about his works, like the capacity for wonder, for example. I think it got through to my head that "serious" writing could involve talking eagles and immortal hot people who liked to sing and dance, i.e. it can be anything you want it to be, provided you don't suck.

I've also digested and analyzed what I didn't like, such as the conversations between Frodo and Sam, for example, that often seemed to jar in my head. It didn't seem sincere to me at the time, maybe because of my politics, maybe because they just stuck out at me like little islands of overwrought text that didn't seem to fit with Tolkien's effortless descriptions of the scenery and so on. Anyhow, I decided to re-examine conversation and the way it can break the flow of prose, and so on, and so forth.

Plus, the books simply reminded me of how much I'm in love with reading, and hopefully always will be.

[Dragon Reborn]

I think that there must have been some overall similarity between those of us who fall in love with these books. What this is we may never know.

Being the little philosopher I am I am hugely impressed by this topic. Let me quote a saying I have heard said: "The more you read, the more you know; the more you know, the more you grow." I think this is true in all cases of reading. I think we grow with every day, and depending on what happens to us, we may learn different things, good or bad. I also think this common admiration between so many people brings us together somehow. It's like we can understand each other more because we understand Tolkien. (Am I blabbering?)

In the most obvious sense I have benefited in my English. Yes, it does make it heaps easier to decipher Shakespeare! Because I'm still in school this is helpful because right now we have to read Hamlet...

I think I have gained a certain respect for the language used, and the way it creates emotion in its readers and helps the writing to flow. Tolkien inspires me (I suppose he inspires us all), and makes me want to be a better writer. I think we all know that nothing like this will ever be done again, and that is part of what makes it special to us. The enormity and uniqueness of his work can not be replicated.

Reading Tolkien opened the door for fiction in my life. That is one thing I am most greatful for. It was my first fiction book, and then was followed by other great fiction writers, though none will ever compare. Eg. Robert Jordan, Garth Nix, Isobelle Carmody, J.K. Rowling..

It would take a lifetime to figure fully how Tolkien affects me. But I know I am grateful for the experience. I just said the first things that came to my head, so please excuse me if they go straight over yours!

[Lalwendë]

I've already answered Fordim's question: Is there a bit of Tolkien in all of us, or are we just rising to a challenge presented by the book in our own unique ways? But I have also been thinking about his other questions:

I am being improved by the book, or am I improving myself in response to the book?

I think that if you do indeed improve yourself in response to the book, then the book has already done its job in terms of improving you. Meaning, for example, if you go on to develop an interest in linguistics after reading LotR, then you are indeed improving in response to the book, and that response has been generated by the book itself in some way.

Is there a specific kind of Middle-earth improvement that I cannot gain from any other book, or is it merely one pathway among many to the same place?

I think the question here is whether there is one place which we can get to from reading the book. As the boards demonstrate, the results of reading Tolkien are disparate. Some of us find certainty in Tolkien, others, like myself, are often left with even more questions than when they started reading. I think this depends upon us as individuals. Tolkien has something to teach us, to show us, but we all interpret it in different ways. He is a teacher, but he is not didactic.

In terms of whether we could get this from any other book, I am not so sure. Possibly if we read all that Tolkien had read, e.g. The Eddas, Beowulf etc., then we might possibly get the same results, as the influence of these is immense on his work, but we must not forget that Tolkien's work is also unique. It is filled with his own interpretations, impressions and ideas.

There are a lot of pathways that look quite similar, but the signposts have been subtly altered, I find! And if we are talking of Middle-earth improvement then where else could we get that from but LotR?

Are those of us who are made better by the book, or who better ourselves in resonse to the book, better in the same way?

I think we all share one common trait and that is a keen sense of wonder. It is this that is stirred within us when we journey through Middle Earth. Possibly this is another 'bit of Tolkien' that we all share, as he certainly had this sense. But I don't think we will all be better in the same way, after all, LotR is just one influence on our lives (even if it is an overly large influence in my own case ) and as individuals we will respond in different ways. There will be certain traits that Downers share, as this is a community, and like all communities, it has its own culture, shared ideals, and broadly held beliefs; other sites would likely be very different. So, we may all share certain traits, but not all Tolkien fans will.