Short-changing Gondor

[Neurion]

I loved the Lord of the Rings trilogy for the most part, but RotK was a bit of a disapointment for me. I was looking forward to seeing Gondor more than anything else, but Tolkien's highly evocative writings about the realm were not really done justice by Jackson IMHO.

In the book, the Gondorians command the allegiance of numerous princes and lords who bring their troops to Minas Tirith to aid them against Mordor, the most important being Imrahil and his knights from Dol Amroth, but there are many other provinces and principalities besides: Lossarnach, Ringlo Vale, Morthrond, Anfalas, Lamedon, the Ethir and Pinnath Gelin, all send soldiers to the embattled capital city, none even find mention in the film. While "The muster of Rohan" makes it clear that Rohan is a large kingdom, its army drawing men from many far=flung regions, Gondor is depicted as little more than a city-state, with even the little farms and homesteads on the Pellenor fields kept from view.

Then there are the characters. The book Minas Tirith has many engaging named characters besides Faramir and Denethor, and Beregond, Bergil, Ioreth, Mablung, Damrod, the Steward of the Houses of Healing and Imrahil are all vital, engaging personalities.

In the film, these are reduced to Faramir, Denethor, Madril and Iorlas, none of whom play much of a part in the proceedings after the second disk of the EE. Madril dies about half-way through the first disk, Iorlas disapears at the beginning of the Seige, Denethor commits suicide at the beginning of the second disk, and Faramir is left with very little to do after being wounded. Gondor is essentially reduced to a city full of very pale people who don't often speak, and soldiers who have better armor than anyone short of Sauron but can't even seem to handle small orcs one-on-one.

In case you think that the writers were somehow constrained to reduce the characters, consider the filmic Rohan's compliment: Theoden, Theodred (might as well count him), Eomer, Eowyn, Hamma, Gamling, Grima, heck, they even invented characters who weren't even in the books to further flesh out Rohan on screen, Morwen, Eothain, Freyda, (just so we can empathize with the peasants of the Westfold), Haleth, Aldor (the old guy who shoot the first Uruk at Helm's Deep), etc.
By contrast, Gondor almost seems tacked on as an afterthought.

I hope some day a new edit of the films will address this, but that's probably just wishful thinking.

[Boromir88]

For the most part I agree. I can see Jackson and team downplaying Denethor, because it would stress the fact that Gondor needed a king. However, PJ takes it way to far with the weakness of Gondor. This is a mighty country, which I think is much more powerful then Rohan. However, Rohan has a much better leader in Theoden. Despite Denethor's good times, he's slipping away, and Theoden is a much better commander of men. Anyway I'm getting to far off track. Point is Jackson downplays Gondor and Denethor to the point where it's just over the top.

Denethor, ok may the guy look like a butthole (which he is in some regards) but do you also have to make him look like a butthole that has no manners? Also, the Gondorian soldiers are so stinkin stupid they shoot a large wooden moving block, and have to be told by Gandalf to "aim for the trolls." Seriously, how stupid are these people?

There was no need to make Gondor look like incompetant soldiers that aren't even smart enough to see you aren't going to do any good by shooting a moving wooden tower.

Lossarnach, Ringlo Vale, Morthrond, Anfalas, Lamedon, the Ethir and Pinnath Gelin,

Don't forget the 50 ships full of men from Lebennin coming with Aragorn. They are replaced by the green slime. I thought the third age was the time of men? But, in both battles (Helm's Deep, and Minas Tirith) the kingdoms can't fight on their own, they have to have elves, or some supernatural indestructable dead people come and help them.

Now for my disagreeing parts, or atleast parts I think that you have missed...

The book Minas Tirith has many engaging named characters besides Faramir and Denethor, and Beregond, Bergil, Ioreth, Mablung, Damrod, the Steward of the Houses of Healing and Imrahil are all vital, engaging personalities.

Mablung's in the movies, he's the guy that goes up to Faramir and is like, "Osgiliath is under attack, they call for reinforcements." When Faramir just discovers about Frodo and the Ring, in TTT. However, it is a minor role, and I don't think this guy does anything anyway.

I am disappointed of the absense of Imrahil and Beregond. Without them you lose two faces of Gondor. Imrahil's Knights' the true splendour and might of Gondor, the one's able to resist the Nazgul shriek. Beregond you miss the compassion, their love behind their captain's of the city. However, it's not a heartbreaking absense that I cry over. (Not that I cry over any of the changes ).

they even invented characters who weren't even in the books to further flesh out Rohan on screen, Morwen, Eothain, Freyda, (just so we can empathize with the peasants of the Westfold), Haleth, Aldor (the old guy who shoot the first Uruk at Helm's Deep),

All these people are from Rohan, currently, or well, long dead, but atleast he used characters from the book. Morwen, being Thengel's wife, of course she's long dead. Eothain is a member of Eomer's Rohirrim in the books, he's a little boy in the movie. Freda, I know is in the books, just don't remember who he/she is. As for Haleth and Aldor. Well both are long dead, but were characters in the books. Aldor, the king Aldor the old. Haleth is a son of Helm Hammerhand I believe.

[Neurion]

[QUOTE=Boromir88]
Now for my disagreeing parts, or atleast parts I think that you have missed...

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Mablung's in the movies, he's the guy that goes up to Faramir and is like, "Osgiliath is under attack, they call for reinforcements." When Faramir just discovers about Frodo and the Ring, in TTT. However, it is a minor role, and I don't think this guy does anything anyway.

I know he's in TTT. in the book he later leads a unit that destroys a small force attempting to attack the Army of the West.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I am disappointed of the absense of Imrahil and Beregond. Without them you lose two faces of Gondor. Imrahil's Knights' the true splendour and might of Gondor, the one's able to resist the Nazgul shriek. Beregond you miss the compassion, their love behind their captain's of the city. However, it's not a heartbreaking absense that I cry over. (Not that I cry over any of the changes ).

It's just confusing for me. They talk a lot about how much they wanted to have Dol Amroth in the film but never got around to it, or how they wanted to have Beregond in, but ran out of time (which makes me wonder if he was actually filmed. After all, Ghan-Buri-Ghan was). It's just incomprehensible.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

All these people are from Rohan, currently, or well, long dead, but atleast he used characters from the book. Morwen, being Thengel's wife, of course she's long dead. Eothain is a member of Eomer's Rohirrim in the books, he's a little boy in the movie. Freda, I know is in the books, just don't remember who he/she is. As for Haleth and Aldor. Well both are long dead, but were characters in the books. Aldor, the king Aldor the old. Haleth is a son of Helm Hammerhand I believe.

I know, but they changed them to give extra definition to Rohan. It would have been nice to see that same courtesy extended to the Gondorians

[Encaitare]

You're right about Haleth, Boromir, but the name Haleth was also given to a woman... and so I rather smirk to myself when I see that kid. *insert evil smiley here*

By the way, I dig your new title. Very spiffy.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

You're right about Haleth, Boromir, but the name Haleth was also given to a woman... and so I rather smirk to myself when I see that kid. *insert evil smiley here*

Stop smirking then. "Haleth" is a feminine Sindarin name, but a masculine Rohirric name.

[Boromir88]

By the way, I dig your new title. Very spiffy.

Thanks Enca, it was a surprise to me. I told BW to pick that or Laconic Lich, now we know which one he picked.

That's a nice one you have yourself .

[Lhunardawen]

PJ 's also trying to emphasize the role of Frodo in Sauron's defeat.

Congratulations, Boromir88 and Encaitare!

[Boromir88]

PJ 's also trying to emphasize the role of Frodo in Sauron's defeat.

I understand the reasons behind it, and I think it is a reasonable explanation. I just feel as if PJ did too much of it, making the Gondorians look like they have no battle capability, or no military "brain power," at all. You could say that he overexaggerated it, atleast in my opinion.

Congratulations, Boromir88 and Encaitare!

Thanks

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by B88

You could say that he overexaggerated it, atleast in my opinion.

For cinematic effect. Besides, he has artistic freedom. Didn't use it accordingly, let me tell you.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

For cinematic effect. Besides, he has artistic freedom. Didn't use it accordingly, let me tell you.

Didn't do justice to the books either, it seems.

Rather than have the Gondorian soldiers simply standing around and waiting for the orcs to lightly tap them before collapsing to the ground like their legs have suddenly evaporated, it would have had much more "Cinematic effect" (and would have been more faithful to Tolkien's descriptions of the orcs and Gondorians relative size and strength) to have individual soldiers killing to or three orcs in single combat before getting jumped by about ten of them.