Elves and Ringwraiths

[Fingolfin II]

Gandalf said that Aragorn and Glorfindel together couldn't defeat the Nazgul on foot. As Boromir said, it is doubtful whether anyone not wielding the Ring can defeat all Nine by themselves. However, if anyone could do it, I'd back Gandalf the White- he was capable of fighting the Nazgul when he was Gandalf the Grey and he could defeat (albeit, he might not be able to kill- the prophecy) the Witch-King in the form of Gandalf the White.

As to whether who would win out of Elves and Men, I'd say it's an individual thing. Turin beat Saeros and Beren defeated Celegorm and Curufin, though I'd certainly say that Elves would probably be the superior fighting race, as they are in lore, music, etc.

Remember, the Numenoreans learned a lot from the Eonwe and the Eldar, as well as discovering a lot for themselves, so my bet is that any Elf from the Blessed Realm (and even the 'average' Elf) has a greater chance of defeating a man. However, there are exceptions. It's hard to say who'd win a fight between the 'average' Man and the 'average' Elf, because although Men are said to be stronger, we all know there are many factors in a fight rather than just brute strength- i.e. stamina, speed, skill, etc. It's like asking who would win a fight between Fingolfin and Hurin, or Gil-Galad and Tuor, or Aragorn and Glorfindel- there's no real telling who would win.

To get back to the original question, I would say yes, the Nazgul are stronger than most Elves as a result of the power instilled in them by Sauron's Nine Rings. However, we have seen that some Elves, such as Glorfindel and even Men - specifically Aragorn and Eowyn - have defeated the Nazgul, whether temporarily or in Eowyn's case, for good. Elves born in the Blessed Realm live both in the Ringwraith and 'normal' world and are said to have a great power against the 'shadows of Men' that are the Nazgul.

However, as I said before, this is an individual case, so therefore sweeping generalisations cannot be made. I acknowledge though that Elves are the 'superior race' in general compared to Men. To me, the Nine Rings put the Ulairi (I'm getting sick of saying 'Nazgul' all the time ) on the same plane as most Elves, though people like Elrond, Glorfindel and Galadriel could defeat them individually. Whether they could defeat them in whole group remains to be seen.

EDIT: The Nazgul have an advantage over Men that they can travel unseen and also the advantage of fear. After all, this is said to be the King of the Nazgul's main weapon (aside from that beastly mace- urgh!).

[davem]

But the Rings don't make them more powerful in themselves - they become enslaved to Sauron & its basically his power which they manifest, not their own. Its more a case, I think, of Sauron being more powerful than the Elves - yet even he was no undefeatable. He was beaten by Elendil & Gil-galad, even when he had possession of the Ring.

The power thing is a difficult issue, as this 'power' is more a negative thing than a positive one. It is a 'power' to negate, consume & destroy, not to create & build. The power of the High Elves could drive it back - hence Glorfindel could drive back the Nine simply by approaching them. The Light of Aman was in his face: he had seen the Two Trees before they were destroyed. The Darkness could not stand against that so the Nazgul were driven back.

I think that what we're dealing with is not a contest of strength - whether the Elves are stronger that the Nazgul in the sense of one human being more powerful than another - but of different 'forces' creation vs destruction, life versus not death but 'unlife', Light versus 'unkight'. Or 'presence', being, versus 'absence', unbeing

[drigel]

If there is anything to compare, its possibly with the unseen side of things. Elves can walk both in the seen and the unseen world. Mabye thats what is implied here: that while a mighty enough elf could destroy the physical rainment of a Nazgul, the undead spirit could never be destroyed while Sauron existed. Hence the "Nazgul can never be defeated" quote. An elf could clearly see that. The unhoused Nazgul spirit would simply recloak itself (in time) in another physical shell...?..?

[Frodo Baggins]

Now here is an interesting topic. a bit off topic, but there were some men, such as Beren and Turin, that were, or seemed to be, physically stronger than the "Average" Elf.

As for the Ulairi, they work with Sauron's power mostly. Truthfully I'm not sure an average, everyday elf could take them on. Remember how they all shoved their fingers in thear ears when Gandalf spoke the black speech.

Here's an intersting key. It says that Morgoth and Sauron feard Varda above all the other Valar. Aragorn says to Frodo after the attack upon Amon Sul, "More deady to him (the witch-king) was the name of Elbereth." The Ringwraiths got really scared when they heard that name.

Aragorn didn't really defeat the Wraiths, he just temporarily chased them off. Still, the Hobbits themselves attempted to fight them, Frodo even stabbed one of them, so apparently even Little Ones can put up a fight. If not for very long.

Now as for elves. Perhaps the average elf could put up a bit of a fight, just as hobbits and rangers/exiled kings. Gandalf said there were few in Rivendell who could ride against the nine. Glorfindel is one. He saw the two trees, and the light of Aman is in his face. Also, he had encountered the Witch-King before in the wars with Angmar earlier in the Third Age. It was there that the Ulairi learned that Glorfindel was scary and not to be messed with. He could very likely mop the floor with at least one or two.

Galadriel as well. She saw the Trees before they were destroyed and I think lived partly in Aman (at least in her thoughts) while in MIddle Earth. And she is a fighter, they didnt call her Man-maiden for nothing.

Gandalf, Olorin, Maia of Lorien. In a sense he is equal to Sauron and above the Ulairi on the power scale. He drove the Witch-King from the gate of Minas Tirith. We don't really know what he did on Weathertop, but I think all nine would likely be too much even for him.

Forgive me but I'm not sure Elrond would be able to take on more than one at a time. Yes he does have Vilya but I'm not sure that would be much help. Also, he was born in Middle-earth, after the destruction of the trees. I doubt he would be in both realms at once, but he may. But then, Eowyn didn thave anything but her sword, her wrath, and a loophole on a porphecy. So who knows?

[Boromir88]

I would give Elrond more credit then that. I know Galadriel, Glorfindel, Gildor, and Cirdan probably all out-rank him, power-wise, or wisdom-wise, but after them I would put Elrond. He also used Vilya to summon the flood.

Your normal elf soldier wouldn't put up too much of a fight against a Wraith. You have to admire Frodo's courage, for stabbing at the wraith, but he didn't put up much of a fight besides stabbing at his feet. But, that was more then the other hobbits, who threw themself to the ground, or in Sam's case shrunk beside Frodo and wimpered. (Don't worry Sam your time will come).

[Mithalwen]

Actually I think Elrond is unlikely to be outranked by anyone by anyone but Galadriel if push came to shove - I think that he is a bit of a special case as Peredhil. Glorfindel is shown as a deputy of Elrond. In HoME, I believe, that there is a is a feeling that the crafts of warrior and healer were incompatible. It is my instinct that Elrond may have renounced warfare after the Last Alliance or that in order to protect Imladris withg Vilya he had to remain there. In either case it seems that once Glorfindel had returned he became the military leader of the forces of Rivendell.

Elrond may not have been born in Valinor but look at his ancestry - and it seems power is passed through blood in Middle Earth. He was Gil Galad's heir, child of Earendil and Elwing, grandson of Tuor and Idril, Great grandson of Luthien and Beren and Turgon and Huor.... as herald of Gil-galad he would have been in the thick of it when Sauron was cast -down, it was his craft that swept the Nazgul away .... a match for most of the Nazgul in my book.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Did the original point suggest that being enslaved by Sauron was desirable?

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Fingolfin II

Gandalf said that Aragorn and Glorfindel together couldn't defeat the Nazgul on foot. As Boromir said, it is doubtful whether anyone not wielding the Ring can defeat all Nine by themselves. However, if anyone could do it, I'd back Gandalf the White- he was capable of fighting the Nazgul when he was Gandalf the Grey and he could defeat (albeit, he might not be able to kill- the prophecy) the Witch-King in the form of Gandalf the White.

As to whether who would win out of Elves and Men, I'd say it's an individual thing. Turin beat Saeros and Beren defeated Celegorm and Curufin, though I'd certainly say that Elves would probably be the superior fighting race, as they are in lore, music, etc.

Remember, the Numenoreans learned a lot from the Eonwe and the Eldar, as well as discovering a lot for themselves, so my bet is that any Elf from the Blessed Realm (and even the 'average' Elf) has a greater chance of defeating a man. However, there are exceptions. It's hard to say who'd win a fight between the 'average' Man and the 'average' Elf, because although Men are said to be stronger, we all know there are many factors in a fight rather than just brute strength- i.e. stamina, speed, skill, etc. It's like asking who would win a fight between Fingolfin and Hurin, or Gil-Galad and Tuor, or Aragorn and Glorfindel- there's no real telling who would win.

To get back to the original question, I would say yes, the Nazgul are stronger than most Elves as a result of the power instilled in them by Sauron's Nine Rings. However, we have seen that some Elves, such as Glorfindel and even Men - specifically Aragorn and Eowyn - have defeated the Nazgul, whether temporarily or in Eowyn's case, for good. Elves born in the Blessed Realm live both in the Ringwraith and 'normal' world and are said to have a great power against the 'shadows of Men' that are the Nazgul.

However, as I said before, this is an individual case, so therefore sweeping generalisations cannot be made. I acknowledge though that Elves are the 'superior race' in general compared to Men. To me, the Nine Rings put the Ulairi (I'm getting sick of saying 'Nazgul' all the time ) on the same plane as most Elves, though people like Elrond, Glorfindel and Galadriel could defeat them individually. Whether they could defeat them in whole group remains to be seen.

EDIT: The Nazgul have an advantage over Men that they can travel unseen and also the advantage of fear. After all, this is said to be the King of the Nazgul's main weapon (aside from that beastly mace- urgh!).

Give us a proof that men are stronger than Eldar.
Don't come with that "Turin thing" because he wasn't fighting an Eldar.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by arathorn

Give us a proof that men are stronger than Eldar.
Don't come with that "Turin thing" because he wasn't fighting an Eldar.

Yes, he was, actually, according to the definition of "Eldar" used in the published "Silmarillion"- there the Nandor were Teleri, thus Eldar. Mind you, Tolkien's concept of "Eldar" vs "Avari" was one he revised quite a bit, as he did many other things... but that's in itself a reason not to get too dogmatic on these sort of issues.

More to the point, the member of whom you're demanding "proof" made that post ten years ago, and hasn't been around for a while... so I'm afraid you could be waiting a long time for a reply.

Welcome to the Downs!

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes, he was, actually, according to the definition of "Eldar" used in the published "Silmarillion"- there the Nandor were Teleri, thus Eldar. Mind you, Tolkien's concept of "Eldar" vs "Avari" was one he revised quite a bit, as he did many other things... but that's in itself a reason not to get too dogmatic on these sort of issues.

More to the point, the member of whom you're demanding "proof" made that post ten years ago, and hasn't been around for a while... so I'm afraid you could be waiting a long time for a reply.

Welcome to the Downs!

Yeah that seems correct but it is also stated that they become very different from the Sindar, probably they weren't so strong and Saeros wasn't also a militar.

The Elves in Middle-earth were "a race high and beautiful, the older Children of the world, and among them the Eldar [referring to the Noldor Eldar] were as kings, who now are gone: the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars.

'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. - One of his latest notes.

[Galin]

The Elves in Middle-earth were "a race high and beautiful, the older Children of the world, and among them the Eldar [referring to the Noldor Eldar] were as kings, who now are gone: the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars.

First I note that the passage continues: '... People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin.'

Christopher Tolkien's objection to this passage is in reference to the fact that the mostly golden-haired Vanyar are Eldar by any definition, and the larger passage seems to say that the Eldar were generally dark-haired. This is being corrected in new editions of The Return of the King where a footnote has been added to note that: ['These words describing characters of face and hair in fact applied only to the Noldor: see The Book of Lost Tales, Part One, p. 44']

But there is further explanation from Christopher Tolkien about this matter too, where, in The Peoples of Middle-Earth he explains that despite the notion of the 'golden Vanyar' appearing to have pre-dated the final form of Appendix F, his father yet carefully revised this passage to refer to the Eldar, not just the Noldor.

Moreover, although the added footnote is correct in one sense, in my opinion in an internal sense the characteristics can easily apply to the Sindar too -- thus 'the Eldar of Middle-earth' [includes the Sindar*]. Which I think is a good way to view this passage, considering that the Vanyar were 'hardly' in Middle-earth from a relative, historical standpoint at least. As you quoted yourself above...

7. In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe."

And Tolkien further notes here that it was the brightness of the eyes of the Exiles that helped make them distinct from the Sindar.

WCH has well argued that Tolkien probably goofed here Vanyar-wise, but JRRT later changed 'House of Finrod' here to 'House of Finarfin' for the Second Edition, and so must have missed his own suggestion about the Vanyar here once again? I guess it's possible.

Anyway in the end the text was never corrected [besides Finarfin I mean] by the author himself, and CJRT's objection also supports that the term Eldar is meant, not the Noldorin Eldar only. And in any case I don't see Christopher Tolkien's objection as pertaining to anything but the characteristics that follow the part of the passage you quoted -- although that said, I can see why, if one accepts 'they' as the Noldor as far as hair and so on, then the Noldor can be meant in the earlier passage too.

For myself, I say can't we just leave it as Eldar? I'm all for getting the hair colour right...

... but I'm not sure even CJRT would know Tolkien's move if he noted the 'problem' here. If his father thought it was a problem! I mean why can't we have dark-haired Vanyar as a 'fix' [the idea of the golden Vanyar is the 'unpublished' part in any case], and some golden haired East-elves?

There's seemingly one in Lorien already

__________

*Nerwen has already spoken to the changing nature of the term Eldar, and in The Lord of the Rings itself [but not necessarily in other works], in my opinion Eldar refers properly to the Vanyar** Noldor and Sindar only -- changing internally from its original reference to all Elves of course.

**The Vanyar are not noted, if I recall correctly, but are included as Eldar by implication, being Elves who passed Over Sea.

It does appear that Tolkien changed his mind to include the Nandor, and any who started the Great Journey, not simply those who passed Over Sea save the Sindar only, or [essentially] 'West-elves' [again based on text in The Return of the King].

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by arathorn

Give us a proof that men are stronger than Eldar.
Don't come with that "Turin thing" because he wasn't fighting an Eldar.

Men are no where near as strong as an average elf and they lack the 'magic' the elves have. The exceptions being the men with divine ancestry or the ones practicing black magic.

The exceptions to this are the Numenoreans who experienced a new enlightening and restoration in the Numenor. The Numenoreans are not distinguishable from the Eldar. When Tolkien compares the average heights the Numenoreans are equal with the Noldor.


However, if we are talking about individual houses then the House of Hador and Beren are physically the stronger than elves. Tolkien may have decided to drop the story of even Fingon being unable to wear the Dragon's helm, but there is lot's of other evidence.

Turin and Beren are probably the two strongest physically out of any elf or man. After that comes the House of Hador and House of Fingolfin. The early Numenorean Kings being descendants of Hador and Fingolfin would be there as well.

[Nerwen]

cellurdur, what is your source for all this? "Strength" can mean a lot of things- certainly Elves are *tougher* than Men- but the counter-examples you and arathorn mention suggest you're both thinking largely in terms of brute force. Is there a chart ranking everyone by this that I missed, somehow?

-Galin, I think that physical description of the Eldar in the "Return of the King" appendices may indeed refer to those of Middle-earth only- if you assume the point is to describe the Eldar as Men knew them (in which case the appearance of the Vanyar isn't relevant).

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

cellurdur, what is your source for all this? "Strength" can mean a lot of things- certainly Elves are *tougher* than Men- but the counter-examples you and arathorn mention suggest you're both thinking largely in terms of brute force.

Do I really just mention brute force? I thought I mentioned the inability of Men to use what we would call magic. I talk about how Numenoreans were blessed and had the gifts humans before they came into contact with Melkor. The telepathy the Numenoreans have is certainly 'magical' to us.

I talk about a variety of issues and Tolkien does tend to give us ranking charts and it appears you have missed it. Or do you disagree that Luthien is the fairest of all elves? Daeron the best out of all singers or Earendil the best out of all sailors? Maybe Feanor was the not the finest or all craftsmen after all?

What exactly do you want me to provide a source for?

[Nerwen]

I have indeed missed these ranking charts of which you speak.

Tolkien does often describe various people and things as the "---est"; while this is no doubt literally true in the case of, say, Feanor being the "greatest craftsman", much of the time it's a matter of him saying different things at different times, and not being particularly consistent. Judging from things you've said here and elsewhere, I gather you believe that there is a precise, thought-out system underlying all this. I doubt it.

Anyway, I'm not disputing the "magic" issue- but most of your post is, seemingly, concerned with physical strength. That's what I'm asking about.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I have indeed missed these ranking charts of which you speak.

Tolkien does often describe various people and things as the "---est"; while this is no doubt literally true in the case of, say, Feanor being the "greatest craftsman", much of the time it's a matter of him saying different things at different times, and not being particularly consistent. Judging from things you've said here and elsewhere, I gather you believe that there is a precise, thought-out system underlying all this. I doubt it.

Anyway, I'm not disputing the "magic" issue- but most of your post is, seemingly, concerned with physical strength. That's what I'm asking about.

When you write a work as detailed and vast as Tolkien's you are going to have mistakes. In the earliest drafts there is even intentional author bias.

The contradictions are not really that many considering how long he has been writing the story. A lot of the time they are consistent.

You mentioned Feanor, but why not comment on Daeron, Luthien or Earendil? In all three cases we are told several times that they are the best in a certain field. If you want to accept that Feanor is the mightiest craftsmen then how can you reject that Daeron is the mightiest singer?

How many different types of strength are there? Once we dismiss men from the 'strength' in magic, then there is only strength of body and strength of will left. Nor is strength of 'will' the same as wisdom. Ar-pharazon had strength of will, but lacked wisdom. In terms of strength of will once more the House of Hador stand at the forefront.

The House of Finarfin seemed particular adapt at 'magic' with the likes of Galadriel and Finrod.

When I commented on strength of body, I specifically mentioned 'physical strength'.

'But Turin had been long in a hard school, and had grown as agile as any Elf, but stronger.'-UT

As for strength of will Hurin is elsewhere called the mightiest in this and we see this in action when he is not daunted by Morgoth's eyes.

' and he sought to daunt him (Hurin) with his eyes. But Hurin could not yet be daunted and he defied Morgoth.'-UT

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

-Galin, I think that physical description of the Eldar in the "Return of the King" appendices may indeed refer to those of Middle-earth only- if you assume the point is to describe the Eldar as Men knew them (in which case the appearance of the Vanyar isn't relevant).

That's a valid point, which I hadn't considered; but it is reinforced by the end of the passage that says "they are all now gone"- cert. a reference to Middle-earth and not the Elves in Aman!

[Nerwen]

cellurdur, let me explain something, re: ranking. No-one would doubt that some characters are meant to be more powerful than others, or better-looking, or taller, or whatever. What I, G55 and others take issue with is your belief that all the major characters can be precisely, objectively and definitively graded on this basis.

You have, as requested- thank you!- demonstrated your own system for doing this, which seems to involve taking various statements and descriptions written by Tolkien over the years, and making them add up by means of what I'd have to call "selective literalism". If that satisfies you, well and good. However, in my opinion your conclusions are by no means the only possible ones, even on your own terms, nor does disagreeing with them, or even disputing the validity of what you are doing, mean "advocating a chaos".

That is all.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

cellurdur, let me explain something, re: ranking. No-one would doubt that some characters are meant to be more powerful than others, or better-looking, or taller, or whatever. What I, G55 and others take issue with is your belief that all the major characters can be precisely, objectively and definitively graded on this basis.

Where do I say that all major characters can be precisely and objectively graded on any particular basis? You are pulling a strawman argument. I said certain things can be ranked and Tolkien is often very clear with no contradiction when he wants this to be the case. Arguing against Luthien being the fairest, Feanor the greatest craftsman or Earendil the greatest mariner. I don't feel the need or argue that we can rate say whether Faramir was fairer than Boromir, or Denethor had more Numenorean qualities than Faramir.

You have, as requested- thank you!- demonstrated your own system for doing this, which seems to involve taking various statements and descriptions written by Tolkien over the years, and making them add up by means of what I'd have to call "selective literalism". If that satisfies you, well and good. However, in my opinion your conclusions are by no means the only possible ones, even on your own terms, nor does disagreeing with them, or even disputing the validity of what you are doing, mean "advocating a chaos".

That is all.

Once again you are misrepresenting my argument. I don't just go around with a pen marking every time Fingon is called strong and then declare him to be the strongest. I don't particular care of think we have anyway of knowing if Fingon had a stronger will than Finrod.

What I do look at is when a character is called the best at something repeatedly with no contradictions. In such a case I accept what Tolkien is telling me and don't try reject it, because I want my favourite character to have more prominence.

Luthien is called the fairest, with no competition, no contradiction throughout different stories, different drafts etc. Earendil is called the mightiest mariner throughout the story once more with no contradictions. These statements are important to the story and are points Tolkien stresses. I wonder if the resistance to such statements is to elevate personal favourites to a higher role than Tolkien wrote.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

That's a valid point, which I hadn't considered; but it is reinforced by the end of the passage that says "they are all now gone"- cert. a reference to Middle-earth and not the Elves in Aman!

Well, I'd never thought of it before myself until I re-read the passage a couple of days ago.

The difficulty is that at the start Tolkien is clearly referring to the Elves of Aman (and, by implication, the Vanyar) as well: "...Eldar, the name of the *Three* Kindreds that sought for the Undying Ream..."

So at some point the subject changes from all the Eldar to those of Middle-earth only. My guess is that the key is in the next sentence where he starts talking about "...such memories of this people as Men preserved...".

[Galin]

WCH wrote: That's a valid point, which I hadn't considered; but it is reinforced by the end of the passage that says "they are all now gone"- cert. a reference to Middle-earth and not the Elves in Aman!

Nerwen responded: Well, I'd never thought of it before myself until I re-read the passage a couple of days ago.

The difficulty is that at the start Tolkien is clearly referring to the Elves of Aman (and, by implication, the Vanyar) as well: "...Eldar, the name of the *Three* Kindreds that sought for the Undying Ream..."

So at some point the subject changes from all the Eldar to those of Middle-earth only. My guess is that the key is in the next sentence where he starts talking about "...such memories of this people as Men preserved...".

Yikes, both good points that I never thought about before..

... and [ahem] here I thought it was me who 'invented' this interpretation too


Reading the fuller passage again with both things in mind, I do agree [admittedly with some reason to, no doubt, in attempt to sustain the interpretation] that there is enough intervening text between the two statements, and perhaps notably, as I think is being noted by Nerwen, about how Men perceive what an 'Elf' is, and about them not possessing wings and so on, as some 'mortals' might think in Tolkien's day for instance.


So if this interpretation holds up, can I ask WCH to pass it on to CJRT and let me know what he thinks about taking this new footnote back out of publication?

Well of course I can ask... even if I already know the answer

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Men are no where near as strong as an average elf and they lack the 'magic' the elves have. The exceptions being the men with divine ancestry or the ones practicing black magic.

The exceptions to this are the Numenoreans who experienced a new enlightening and restoration in the Numenor. The Numenoreans are not distinguishable from the Eldar. When Tolkien compares the average heights the Numenoreans are equal with the Noldor.


However, if we are talking about individual houses then the House of Hador and Beren are physically the stronger than elves. Tolkien may have decided to drop the story of even Fingon being unable to wear the Dragon's helm, but there is lot's of other evidence.

Turin and Beren are probably the two strongest physically out of any elf or man. After that comes the House of Hador and House of Fingolfin. The early Numenorean Kings being descendants of Hador and Fingolfin would be there as well.

Beren wasn't stronger than Finrod don't you remember the passage:
Felagund put forth all his power and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth. –Here Finrod was strong enough to burst his bonds to save Beren (one of the strongest men the tales tell and wasn’t capable of escaping).