The Ainur and their physical forms

[Neithan]

Apparently there is a restriction, that a Maia can embody himself only with shapes of his own gender. The gender is anchored in the spirit of the Maia and influenced apparently the physical form. An attribute. But surely there are other attributes, which are fixed in the spirit. Attributes, which have effects of the physical forms they can choose. I think, that the body of the Maia is mirroring his spirit. We see this in the changing of Sauron's shapes in the 'hands' of Huan.

Tolkien compares the genders of the Valar and Maiar's hroar to the different clothing of men and women and he says that their gender was "bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice." To me this implies that they could have taken the hroar of the opposite sex, but I am sure that it would have had just as much, if not more, social stigma as cross-dressing has for us.
And as for the hroa mirroring the fea, I think that it did, but that if they wanted to the Ainur could choose a decietful hroa, that is they could appear fair when they are really evil.

After the Downfall of Numenor, Sauron could not take a beautiful shape again, he lost his shape in the Sinking of Numenor. I interpret this passage in the following way: the Downfall of Numenor, for which Sauron is responsible, the measure of his evil deeds was so high, that 'his spirit' was so foul, that he could not take another form as a 'Dark Lord'.

I had a somewhat different interpretation, because Sauron's hroa was destroyed he was weakened and could no longer assume a hroa that was different in nature from himself. Therefore because he was himself dark and terrible his physical form had to reflect that.

If Maiar become bound to their hröar through indulgence in physical pleasures (eating, drinking, begetting etc), does that mean that Melian and Gandalf (and any other of the Istari that may have returned) remained bound to their physical form on their return to Aman?

Actually Child of the 7th Age posted his reply just after I had decided what to answer to this question, and I agree with everything he said, other than the typo where he called Gandalf a Vala, but I would add that since Gandalf had already lost his hroa and come back in a more powerful form it would be hard to imagine that he could not exit it, and I am quite sure that Melian was not trapped in her hroa either.

Actually, one more question. Am I correct in understanding that a Maia bound to his or her hröar could still assume a different form?

I don't think so, at least not normally. Sauron may have been a special case since he had put so much of his power into the ring and he was powerful to begin with, but I still don't think that he could shape shift as he used to.

[obloquy]

I was unaware that discussions of this topic were allowed without my participation.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Child

SpM - Speaking directly to the question you've raised.... Yes, I've read that quote from osanwe before, but have always felt that "being trapped" was a danger upon misuse of the form, rather than something inherent to the form itself.

But the first paragraph of the quote that HerenIstarion gives suggests that the spirit may become tied to the body without it being misused (in the sense of being used for evil):

It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengoloð also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa.

It seems that the spirit may become inextricably tied to the hröa simply through the necessities of sustaining it over a prolonged period of time. My quesion is whether, in light of this, the likes of Gandalf and Melian would have been able voluntarily to leave their bodies once they returned to Aman (and Melian, after all, conceived a child - which is said in that passage to be the most binding of all acts).

Originally Posted by Child

If the Istari had been told they would be trapped forever in a carnate body merely because they had eaten a meal or enjoyed a pint of ale, I doubt they would have agreed to come. And surely Manwe would not withold such an important piece of information from them, if it was true.

I agree that Manwe would have warned them, and it is quite possible that he did. But perhaps it was a sacrifice that they were prepared to make (or risk having to make) in order to "save" the peoples of Middle-earth from Sauron's menace. After all, they were not prevented from returning to Aman (unless, like Saruman, they strayed from the path). They would simply have to do so in bodily form, and the Elves who dwelt there (outside Mandos' Halls) were perfectly content to do so in such form.

Or perhaps the hröa would fade over time (dependent on the extent to which they indulged in "earthly pleasures"), allowing them evetually to return to a wholly spirit-ual existence.

In any event, if Gandalf got stuck with his physical body, I would put the blame squarely on all that pipweed he smoked.

Originally Posted by Neithan

I don't think so, at least not normally. Sauron may have been a special case since he had put so much of his power into the ring and he was powerful to begin with, but I still don't think that he could shape shift as he used to.

But the fact that he could no longer take fair form certainly implies, to me at least, that he could take other forms. And why should he have been any different from other Maiar?

To be honest, I am looking for a solution here to the Balrog wing debate. If, despite being tied to their bodies, they were still able to shape-shift, then a Balrog could have wings - or not - depending on how he felt that day.

Originally Posted by obloquy

I was unaware that discussions of this topic were allowed without my participation.

So participate.

[Neithan]

They would simply have to do so in bodily form, and the Elves who dwelt there (outside Mandos' Halls) were perfectly content to do so in such form.

I still think that because of the Istari's special circumstances they would not be bound to their forms after they came back to Valinor.

But the fact that he could no longer take fair form certainly implies, to me at least, that he could take other forms.

Not necessarily, it could just mean that when he was taking physical form again after being destroyed the form he took could not be fair. Also in the quote provided by HerenIstarion it says,

"It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. (italics mine)

So you see when a Maia was bound to a hröa they were bound to one specific hröa. As for the Balrogs, if they could still shift shape then I am sure they would have done so to escape falling to their deaths.

And why should he have been any different from other Maiar?

Well, since he put a large portion of his power into the one ring, that power stayed intact when his hröa was destroyed. This, I believe, is the only reason he was able to come back the last time. If the ring allowed him to come back, then it could have allowed him to shape shift as well, but personally, I don't think so.

[A_Brandybuck]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

To be honest, I am looking for a solution here to the Balrog wing debate. If, despite being tied to their bodies, they were still able to shape-shift, then a Balrog could have wings - or not - depending on how he felt that day.

Not if the Balrogs have been similar to the Istari. The Istari were bound to the flesh to serve one purpose: helping the free peoples of Middle-earth against Sauron.
Melkor could have made the same thing with the Balrogs. He bound them to the flesh, so that they could serve them as warriors. With one difference, he diminished not their power like the Valar did with the Istari.
If there has been a connection between both partys (we don't know for sure, it is just a thesis), the Balrogs are not able to shape-shift.

And I agree here with Neithan: if they could still shift shape then I am sure they would have done so to escape falling to their deaths.

[obloquy]

The Valar did not diminish the Istari's power. They gave them rules.

Also, I would like to point out that Tolkien creates a distinction between an eala being clothed and one being incarnate. Ealar could evidently take shape and discard it without much consequence; that is, until they began to use that corporeal form for actions that were especially tied to being a physical...being. As has already been mentioned, eating, conceiving, etc. A lot of the shifting of shapes was done fairly early in the history of Middle-earth, and we can presume that it was possible because those ealar had not become so bound to their forms as to be unable to change them, or suffer consequences for abandoning them. That an eala can voluntarily abandon its fully incarnate form is evidenced by Melian's return to Aman after Thingol's death.

Here's some more crap by me. I've written a lot on the subject, actually, so a search for "obloquy" would likely yield every thread on the Downs with embodiment and such as its topic.

[obloquy]

Well, since he put a large portion of his power into the one ring, that power stayed intact when his hröa was destroyed. This, I believe, is the only reason he was able to come back the last time. If the ring allowed him to come back, then it could have allowed him to shape shift as well, but personally, I don't think so.

You're mostly on target here. That's exactly why destroying the Ring was the only way to defeat Sauron. The Ring was why Sauron could survive the death of his body once he had become wholly incarnate. Dying as an Incarnate, such as Morgoth did in one version of the mythology (which happens to be the latest version, if I'm not mistaken, as it is included in Myths Transformed, MR), renders the eala (an originally disembodied spirit) utterly impotent and essentially "dead" in the same sense as innately incarnate beings (Men, Elves, Dwarves) died. So this Ring-as-anchor concept only affects Sauron's spiritual persistence, and does not mitigate his status as incarnate; this status being what allows or disallows the act of shape-changing. Therefore on your second point, I would disagree.

Also, it's notable that Sauron was not completely exempt from the negative effects of dying as an incarnate, even with the Ring's support. He still took quite a while to fashion new forms for himself, and he could not hide the evil tendencies of his spirit in his outward appearance.

[Neithan]

All right obloquy since you are such and expert on the subject then what is your opinion on the chain and the physical vs. spiritual power discussion. Why was Sauron, who was not yet bound to his hröa not able to abandon it to escape Huan without consequences.