The Hobbit Ring-Lord? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

ivo · 12-17-2004, 05:07 AM

Interesting thread Kransha!
I'm a bit surprised that Tolkien mused over an alternate scenario. Because I think it could not have gone otherwise. Of course the story could have gone different (Frodo 'commanding' the Nazgul), but never Frodo could have wield the powers of the Ring without being corrupted. Gandalf warns for this hybris constantly.

Eru and the Valar sang their song, which cannot be changed, so in a way they are also bond to Fate. Which leaves us with the staggering paradox of fate and free will, which no doubt has been discussed abundantly at this forum, but Tuor mentioned it as well. I would like to share a thought about that.

If Frodo had said 'no thanks, I just stick with Hobbiton' to Gandalf, of course the quest would have failed. So how can we talk about 'it had to happen this way', about fate.
A solution might be that it's not in his nature to stay in the Shire. Frodo had to say yes, because that's who he is. I am convinced that we cannot escape ourselves and that in our lives we go a certain direction without even knowing it. Doesn't this rule out free will? I tend to look at it like this: the more we know ourself, the more insight we have, the more free we are. Being free might be: being without doubt.

But does this mean that we can lay back and trust upon this knowledge, and let our lives take it's course?
Not at all. And this is crucial to me. Though Frodo knows he cannot do otherwise (that is: accepting the quest) he is constantly full of anxiety. Just as Aragorn is full of anxiety (is he worth of being the new King), even Gandalf is full of anxiety. I think it's possible to both have faith and be anxious at once. Because you still have to do the job, in Frodo's case: because you still have to face the lands of Mordor. Even Christ is anxious ('let this cup pass me'), because he still has to face crucifixion.

A last example, that of Abraham and Isaak, as described by Kierkegaard in Fear and Trembling.
Abraham is told to kill his son, to prove his faith to God, even though God promised him to have great offspring. Abraham believes that this promise still willl be fulfilled and that in some way he will get Isaak back. But at the same time he has to face a three day journey to the top of a mountain (it is called Moria) where it has to take place. Never in his life has Abraham been through such agonizing, anxious days.

At the crucial moment, God stays his hand, and Abraham is released. That is I think a eucatastrophe.

Sorry for straying, I cannot help it.

12-17-2004, 05:07 AM	#6
ivo Newly Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 10	Interesting thread Kransha! I'm a bit surprised that Tolkien mused over an alternate scenario. Because I think it could not have gone otherwise. Of course the story could have gone different (Frodo 'commanding' the Nazgul), but never Frodo could have wield the powers of the Ring without being corrupted. Gandalf warns for this hybris constantly. Eru and the Valar sang their song, which cannot be changed, so in a way they are also bond to Fate. Which leaves us with the staggering paradox of fate and free will, which no doubt has been discussed abundantly at this forum, but Tuor mentioned it as well. I would like to share a thought about that. If Frodo had said 'no thanks, I just stick with Hobbiton' to Gandalf, of course the quest would have failed. So how can we talk about 'it had to happen this way', about fate. A solution might be that it's not in his nature to stay in the Shire. Frodo had to say yes, because that's who he is. I am convinced that we cannot escape ourselves and that in our lives we go a certain direction without even knowing it. Doesn't this rule out free will? I tend to look at it like this: the more we know ourself, the more insight we have, the more free we are. Being free might be: being without doubt. But does this mean that we can lay back and trust upon this knowledge, and let our lives take it's course? Not at all. And this is crucial to me. Though Frodo knows he cannot do otherwise (that is: accepting the quest) he is constantly full of anxiety. Just as Aragorn is full of anxiety (is he worth of being the new King), even Gandalf is full of anxiety. I think it's possible to both have faith and be anxious at once. Because you still have to do the job, in Frodo's case: because you still have to face the lands of Mordor. Even Christ is anxious ('let this cup pass me'), because he still has to face crucifixion. A last example, that of Abraham and Isaak, as described by Kierkegaard in Fear and Trembling. Abraham is told to kill his son, to prove his faith to God, even though God promised him to have great offspring. Abraham believes that this promise still willl be fulfilled and that in some way he will get Isaak back. But at the same time he has to face a three day journey to the top of a mountain (it is called Moria) where it has to take place. Never in his life has Abraham been through such agonizing, anxious days. At the crucial moment, God stays his hand, and Abraham is released. That is I think a eucatastrophe. Sorry for straying, I cannot help it.