LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 04 - Treebeard

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by HI

Wakening of the Ents by Elves - I always figured that as consisting mainly in teaching the former speech - awaking from slumber. Thing which slumbers is alive by definition.

True, but could they walk before they were awoken? Since they become more "tree-like" with age and inactivity, I imagine that this is how they were before the Elves awoke them. And I suspect that Gandalf's inclusion of the words "walks beneath the Sun" are important, since there could well be trees that are older than Treebeard (for example, those in the deep dark hollows).

I go along with your theory as far as Ainur and Tom are concerned, HI, but I am not sure that it entirely explains the inconsistency as far as Elves are concerned. Perhaps, as you suggest, Gandalf was just talking in "shorthand".

Originally Posted by Boro

There is no clear answer, but some people are just more reliable then others. I would hold Bombadil, Treebeard, Glorfindel, Galadriel, to name a few who are more reliable then Gandalf.

In one of Tolkien's Letters, he casts doubt on Treebeard's reliability (though not his integrity), saying that he does not know everything. And, as one of the Maiar, I would class Gandalf as more reliable than Glorfindel and Galadriel, although their direct involvement in Middle-earth is the longer. As for Tom, well who knows ...?

Originally Posted by Bb

Oh this is another one of those sticking points which Tolkien fans love to stretch out as if it were one of those old-style taffy-pulls of days gone by.

Indeed. And I am one of those taffy-pullers.

But there is much more to discuss in this Chapter. I would, for example, be interested to hear other views on the tale of the Entwives, Tolkien's "male v female approach" comment in his letter and how this all relates back to the Old Forest Chapter and Tolkien's own views on nature (wild v tamed).

Also, why the focus on Pippin rather than Merry?

Finally:

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Perhaps an echo of what Fangorn, Mirkwood, etc. could have been without the machinations of Morgoth and Sauron

Although Middle-earth does have this in Lothlorien which, though perilous, is entirely different in character to Fangorn, Mirkwood and the Old Forest.

EDIT: Cross-posting with Boro's edit, expressing a different view. I agree with you on that one point, although I suspect that Lorien does not have the deep dark hollows that Fangorn has (and which are reminiscent of the Old Forest).