LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 04 - Treebeard

[Encaitare]

Hmm (or should I say Hroom). And I thought that this was going to be a short one.

Well, we know that nothing regarding the Ents can ever be short. Good post, though.

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

I noticed last night that there's something strange about the forests of Middle Earth. There are three forests mentioned by name between The Hobbit and LotR, and all three are forboding and dangerous. One, the Great Forest outside the Shire even possesses a sort of living malenvolence - a shared vegitation memory, if you will, of past injustices. It is described as forcing the Hobbits down the valley towards Old Man Willow.

In The Hobbit, Mirkwood is similarly dangerous, if not with the intellegence of The Old Forest. The Dwarves are warned not to stray from the path for any reason, and to take enough food and water for the entire trip. Now, the elves of Mirkwood may have a different experience, but from the outside it is certainly a dangerous place. On the trip back, even Beorn and Gandalf take the northern route around the forest, rather than through it. Bilbo's description, passed down to Merry and Pippen was as a place all "dark and black, and the home of dark black things."

Lastly, Fangorn is described as "dim and frightfully treeish. You can't imagine animals living here at all, or staying for long." It is a definitely unsettling place. I liked Saucy's description of children playing in a room in the house they knew they were not permitted in. But even Treebeard admits there are places in Fangorn where the darkness has never completely lifted. Has anyone else wondered at Treebeard being call the oldest living thing, but then he himself describes tress in these dark hollows as even older than he is? Or maybe I'm misremembering Gandalf's description of him.

Now, in the Silmarillion, there are different experiences with named forests. Doriath is a great example. At the same time, the Silm is written essentially from an elvish perspective, so the view of the forests would be accordingly more benevolent.

Some food for thought.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Aldarion

Has anyone else wondered at Treebeard being call the oldest living thing, but then he himself describes tress in these dark hollows as even older than he is?

Can anyone give the exact line that Gandalf says? Surely, he is simply describing Treebeard as the oldest living Ent, rather than the oldest living creature. After all, it was the Elves who "woke" the Ents, and Cirdan at least (if not others) must have been around in those days. And then there's old Tom ...

[Boromir88]

Good conclusions Aldarion, I also think Tolkien is trying to draw connections to Bombadil and Treebeard.

They are two of the oldest members of Middle-earth. Bombadil teaches the Hobbits that there is much more to the world then the Shire. Treebeard is as I posted earlier, like a historian, he tells Merry and Pippin about the older days. They both have disrupted speaking habbits. Bombadil pops out into rhymes and his "dol's", Treebeard breaks up his sentences with "hrum, hoom." They both live in a forest that is perilous, but yet the Hobbits find comfort with these two characters.

In contrasting, Tom Bombadil is more upbeat, busy and fast. Where Treebeard is like "don't be hasty...don't be hasty."

"I'm Tom Bombadil. Tell me what's your trouble! Tom's in a hurry now. Don't you crush my lillies."

I think Tolkien is showing their simularities, because both help the Hobbits develop into the mature Hobbits they become by the end of the story. I think the reason Tolkien shows how much these characters are both similar, yet different is for the above reason. But, they are two different people, with different personalities. Tom doesn't care about the rest of the outside world, he doesn't care about the Ring, his power lies in the forest, and he doesn't care about the fate of Middle-earth. Treebeard on the other hand, once he gets roused, he's off. He said he's not interested in wars, since nobody cares about the forests anymore, but it just took some nudging before he went furious about Saruman.

So, they both help the Hobbits understand Middle-earth better, and mature, but one cares about Middle-earth, the other cares about his own things he needs to get done.

[HerenIstarion]

With pleasure:

'The little that I know of his long slow story would make a tale for which we have no time now. Treebeard is Fangorn, the guardian of the forest; he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth

[The Saucepan Man]

Hmm, it's difficult to doubt Gandalf. But surely there must still be Elves in Middle-earth who outstrip Treebeard in terms of age. Wasn't Cirdan one of the Elves who originally woke by Lake Cuivienen? And what about Tom? I believe that there is a thread about this somewhere around here ...

As for Treebeard's reference to the trees in the dark hollows that were even older than he, perhaps, like Old Man Willow, they were not able to walk.

Edit: There are a few threads on this. Here are two of them:

Who’s the oldest?

Who’s the oldest? (2)

[HerenIstarion]

Wakening of the Ents by Elves - I always figured that as consisting mainly in teaching the former speech - awaking from slumber. Thing which slumbers is alive by definition. When fully awoke and able to hum-burarum-ram-roms and similar, it is allegedly more alive than before, drowsy as it was, but it were not dead matter, it were 'alive and kicking', though dumb and speechless.

Besides, does Cirdan walk per se? He rather sits on his wossname most of the time, on the very brim of ME.

And another besides - it may be mere slip of the tongue on Gandalf's part - he may have not remembered exeptions right on the spot, or maybe he was reluctant to break an impression of antiquity he was working up in his listeners etc. It would have been lecture rather than recollection if it ran as follows:

he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing, apart from Iarwain, who is [insert appropriate here] and therefore older, and Cirdan, who was born, as you may know, by lake Cuivienen, which is now lost, that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth

And the third besides (being a speculation, rather than statement): Cirdan is an elf - therefore his life would last as long as Arda lasts, even if he's killed and goes to Aman. Tom is unknown entity (whatever my personal opinions), but allegedly not bound by such a trifle as death. Ents, on the other hand, are similar to humans in ageing and dying, which may take a long time, but the process is evident - Ents are old, some of them die, and all of them will die out unless the Entwives be found. So, it may be that Gandalf has mental proviso, including that class of creatures (dying with true death), and that's among those is Treebeard the oldest - for obviously, Tom is an exeption and elves are special.

EDIT. Just another 'walking' thought (supporting third 'besides') - Gandalf is incarnate, therefore living being, and by that he may be the older one - but he does not draw himself in, neither Saruman, nor Radagast - i.e. different class of beings does not count. So I proclaim speculation plausible END OF EDIT

cheers

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Hmm, it's difficult to doubt Gandalf. But surely there must still be Elves in Middle-earth who outstrip Treebeard in terms of age. Wasn't Cirdan one of the Elves who originally woke by Lake Cuivienen? And what about Tom? I believe that there is a thread about this somewhere around here ...

Oh this is another one of those sticking points which Tolkien fans love to stretch out as if it were one of those old-style taffy-pulls of days gone by.

An authority no less than Tom himself tells the hobbits:

"Who are you, Master;" [Frodo] asked.

"Eh, what?" said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. "Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside."

Where oh where was Christopher Proof-reader on this one?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

The difference in forests in the bulk of Middle-earth, as opposed to
Beleriand and Numenor- which hold no apparent significant evil-
is interesting, Fangorn's etc. evil due to the influence of Morgoth and Sauron?

For example, about the Bay of Eldanna:

All about that place, up the seaward slopes and far into the land, grew the evergreen and fragrant trees that they brought out of the West, and so throve there that the Elder said that almost it was fair as a haven of Eressea. They were the greatest delight of Numenor, and they were remembered in many songs long after they had perished for ever, for few ever flowered east of the Land of Gift: oiolaire and lairelosse, nessamelda, vardarianna, taniquelasse, and yavannamire with its globed and scarlet fruits. Flower, leaf, and rind of those trees exuded sweet scents, and all that country was full of blended fragrance...only here grew the mighty golden tree malinorne, reaching after five centuries a height scarce less than it achieved in Eressea.

Perhaps an echo of what Fangorn, Mirkwood, etc. could have been without
the machinations of Morgoth and Sauron

[Boromir88]

Wonderful quote Bethberry, maybe there is no slip up in the proof-reading of Christopher Tolkien. Maybe, it's simply pointing out that Gandalf himself made a slip up. I agree with SpM, that Gandalf is one of the more trusted peoples from LOTR, but he even makes his slip ups. Denethor is right when saying Gandalf doesn't know everything, I think Gandalf is more reliable then Denethor, but Gandalf has made some occasional slip ups. Even some of the most reliable sources of info can make wrong judgements (as I'm sure we are well aware of).

This right here is what makes Tolkien interesting to read. With all these POV's you got to pick out who is more reliable, one or the other. There is no clear answer, but some people are just more reliable then others. I would hold Bombadil, Treebeard, Glorfindel, Galadriel, to name a few who are more reliable then Gandalf.