**The Return of the King Extended Edition**

[Essex]

I know I've already had my say, but let me point out one thing re the Witch King / Gandalf confrontation:


Gandalf could NOT have Killed the Witch King.


This is pretty much fact. The Propechy (which was Fulfilled) was that no man could defeat the Witch King. Now, you may say Gandalf was not a Man, but Gandalf was given that form, along with its strengths and weaknesses, and to me, this therefore makes the Witch King impervious to him.

Gandalf's staff. IMO I believe this was broken to make the next scene with him confronting Denethor more of a contest than just being able to zap him with his staff. Remember Gandalf had to nab a spear off one of the guards to knock him down with.....Just my opinion and I'll be interseted to hear Jackson's point on this on the commentary if he has one.

[Boromir88]

I thought anything with Denethor in it was done badly. The Pyre scene especially. I mean Denethor pours oil on himself, gets too close to a flame, goes up in flames, runs out screaming, like a maniac. What did you expect? You poured flammable liquid on yourself and caught on fire.

Gandalf could NOT have Killed the Witch King.

This is pretty much fact. The Propechy (which was Fulfilled) was that no man could defeat the Witch King. Now, you may say Gandalf was not a Man, but Gandalf was given that form, along with its strengths and weaknesses, and to me, this therefore makes the Witch King impervious to him.

Makes sense to me. As you've said, eventhough Gandalf wasn't a "man," his powers were limitted and he was shown in man form. We also, must remember, that the Witch-king is no chump either. Eowyn would have gotten annhilated if it wasn't for Merry. (Sorry Eowyn I still love you ).

[Boromir88]

I know I'm posting again, but a thought came to me on Saruman.

Turin,

1. Voice of Saruman scene just didn't do it for me. There is no ominous atmosphere created and Saruman's death was pretty pathetic:

Actually, I thought Chris Lee captured Saruman's voice perfectly. Exactly as I imagined it. After hearing his voice, I can see that Chris Lee truly understands Tolkien. Also, since PJ cut out the Scouring I thought the death of Saruman was really the best way they could have done it.

First-It's a metareference back to his earlier days as Dracula. Where several times Chris Lee is impaled on a wheel of spikes.

Second- If you think about it. Tolkien hates industry, hates machinery. Saruman is one that built up, he was like the "Germany," he was always mixing races, building industries, creating rings, in search for power. I think it's only natural that Saruman dies on his own machines that he constructed, a rather fitting end.

[The Saucepan Man]

I have a copy of the EE which I purchased last Friday, but I still haven't had a chance to watch it yet. Christmas preparations (Christmas tree, wrapping up presents etc) pretty much took up the whole weekend, and now I'm back at work ...

Still, I am savouring the anticipation.

One small, but important, point:

Originally Posted by Essex

Gandalf could NOT have Killed the Witch King.


This is pretty much fact. The Propechy (which was Fulfilled) was that no man could defeat the Witch King. Now, you may say Gandalf was not a Man, but Gandalf was given that form, along with its strengths and weaknesses, and to me, this therefore makes the Witch King impervious to him.

The prophecy was to the effect that the Witch King would not be killed by a man, not that he could not be killed by a man. The Witch King was not therefore "impervious" to Gandalf. It was just that, according to the prophecy, the circumstances would never arise whereby a man would be in a position to destroy the Witch King.

Nevertheless, I doubt that any of the points that have been raised will impair my enjoyment of the EE. After all, these films tell a different story from the book, so inconsistencies between the films and the book don't really bother me. As long as they enhance the films as films and don't introduce any inconsistencies within the films, then I'll be happy. And, on that basis, it sounds as if I have a treat in store.

[Avie]

Got to agree with comments regarding Denethor. Dreadful melodramatic acting (you half expect folks to yell Boo! Hiss! when he appears so much a pantomime villian does he appear) and no sense whatsoever of Tolkien's "noble mind overthrown"
And film Faramir...YACK. Total damsel in distress requiring rescuing from this or that at roughly hourly intervals...
Loved the extended Paths of the Dead sequences though and the added palantir scene with Aragorn is good too.
The EE is worth having but does not undo the general film-version mess made of Denethor's family.

[Boromir88]

Nevertheless, I doubt that any of the points that have been raised will impair my enjoyment of the EE. After all, these films tell a different story from the book, so inconsistencies between the films and the book don't really bother me.

SpM, I'll try to make this from a movie critiquers point-of-view, and not a purists. I won't do any mentioning of what PJ left out from the books .

I thought the acting was splendid, and the scenery, that's what totally catches me about the movies. I thought PJ did a excellent job on those aspects. Even despite my dislike for the slaughter of Denethor's character, John Noble is still a great actor, and plays a really good scumbag you want to punch, like Gandalf....

The problem to me was a lack of character developement. I think PJ tried to focus in on the battle scenes (which are important, but that I don't think is Tolkien's point of the story). He tried to make the battle scenes a focus, and did not focus in enough on the Characters. It's not the fact that PJ missed some concepts that gets me mad (because after all we do miss some concepts, and are still debating over others). Just the simple fact that he made this an action-packed fighting movie, instead of a more sentimental, character focused story. The recent National Treasure movie is what comes to mind. I love this movie, and most people slam it because there is not enough explosions or killing. This, to me, is a wonderful movie, because each character brings their own personality to the table. And we see their character change to fit the conflict they are in. The dialogue in National Treasure, I thought was great. Anyway, I think I rambled on enough.

[Turin]

I agree that there was an over-reliance on battle scenes. Too many battles undermine our (the audience) appreciation of the peril that the characters are confronted with.

There seemed to me to be a lack of depth to the movies. They were too dumbed-down for a start, which shows glaringly in RoTK (Elrond giving the sword to Aragorn, Denethor etc etc etc).

I think movie producers are so arrogant and conceited. They lessen the mood and atmosphere of LoTR to appease the so called "majority" of people who would not have read the book. What they haven't realised is that they have prevented LoTR from becoming an all-time great movie, rather than a slightly-above-average one. My opinion, of course.

Hence, they put in ridiculous things as Legolas the rodeo star; Gimli - making him into a laughing stock (not to mention the appalling jokes), just so that PJ & Co could exploit most people's perceptions of dwarves as being something from Snow White; Gandalf the half-wise, half-blundering buffoon (at times) etc etc. I could go on.

That's not to detract from the good stuff, and there is plenty of it. Though overall the lack of character depth is detriment to the whole "feel" of the movie.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

IThe prophecy was to the effect that the Witch King would not be killed by a man, not that he could not be killed by a man. The Witch King was not therefore "impervious" to Gandalf. It was just that, according to the prophecy, the circumstances would never arise whereby a man would be in a position to destroy the Witch King.

OK, you seem to be better versed in the circumstances of this Prophecy (I admit I can't get my hands on when it's actually said - is it in the Council of Elrond or unfinished tales or what?)

But to add to my point of view, Mr Angmar himself is fairly sure of himself, but I suppose this could be misguided arrogance......

WK (to Eowyn) as he's about to kick her butt: (or so he thinks)

Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!

I've no doubt missed the thread or forgotten about it where we've discussed this before. Or it may have been before my time....

[The Saucepan Man]

... is it in the Council of Elrond or unfinished tales or what?

It is in one of the Appendices. I haven't got the book to hand, but it's the section dealing with the final defeat of the Witch King of Angmar at the Battle of Fornost. The prophecy was made by Glorfindel, as he held Earnur back from following the retreating Witch King.

I don't think that it is made clear whether the Witch King was aware of the prophecy or whether he was simply displaying his arrogance at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. Although the fact that he shows sudden doubt when Eowyn reveals her true identity might suggest that he was aware of it.

In any event, it might be said that Glorfindel's prophecy is irrelevant for the purposes of the film, since it is never mentioned. We only have the Witch King's declaration that no living man may hinder him. And that, I suppose, could be interpreted as indicating that he is impervious to any man (including, on the basis of your reasoning, Gandalf).

[Boromir88]

If I'm not mistaken in ROTK, Gandalf mentions the Witch-King to Pippin. When Pippin and Gandalf are sitting out on the balcony, Pippin says (paraphrasing) "That's ok we have the White Wizard, that's got to account for something. (Sees a troubled Gandalf) What is it?"
Gandalf: "Sauron has yet to unleash his greatest foe, the Witch-King of Angmar, the one they say no living man can kill."

So possibly instead of Glorfindel saying it PJ has another credible character, a more familiar one everyone can connect with, Gandalf?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Sauron has yet to unleash his greatest foe, the Witch-King of Angmar, the one they say no living man can kill.

You may well be right there. I hadn't picked up on it.

If that's the line, it backs up the "imperviousness" interpretation, rather than the "circumstances" interpretation of the books - where Glorfindel says something like: "His doom is far off and will not come by the hand of a living man". (Of course, it didn't stop impetuous old Earnur running off into Mordor when the Witch king issued his challenge though, thus leaving Gondor without a King. )