LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 03 - The Uruk-Hai

[Aiwendil]

HerenIstarion wrote:

But basically that's what I've tried to say, but obviously failed (right but no ability, blah-blah-blah)

Minus the main bulk of orcs (and I make such a proviso on the ground of Tolkien's later opinion (i.e. "Orcs are beasts and Balrogs Maiar").

Ah, but this exactly what I was referring to. Your supposition is that there are two quite distinct kinds of Orcs: those with free will and those that are mere beasts. My point was that such a distinction does not appear to be at all present in LotR. Tolkien's late thoughts on Orc-nature are by no means clear, but even if one reads the Myths Transformed texts as indicating such a dichotomy (which is I think a valid reading) such a view seems to me to contradict their depiction in LotR.

Davem wrote:

But was this episode written pre- or post LotR - don't have my books to hand?

It was present in the original late 1920s version of the poem, and was heavily revised in the 1950s.

Did the writing of episodes like this one in LotR change the Orcs of the Sil - was this change written back into the Silmarillion?

An interesting question - did the writing of LotR alter the depiction of Orcs? We might compare the two passages from the Lay. The unrevised:

'This ring in far Beleriand
now mark ye, mates' he said, 'was wrought.
Its like with gold could not be bought,
for this same Barahir I slew,
this robber fool, they say, did do
a deed of service long ago
for Felagund. It may be so;
for Morgoth bade me bring it back,
and yet, methinks, he has no lack
of weightier treasure in his hoard.
Such greed befits not such a lord,
and I am minded to declare
the hand of Barahir was bare!'

And the revised:

. . . 'Now, mates' he cried
'here's mine! And I'll not be denied,
though few be like it in the land.
For I 'twas wrenched it from the hand
of that same Barahir I slew,
the robber-knave. If tales be true,
he had it of some elvish lord,
for the rogue-service of his sword.
No help it gave to him - he's dead.
They're parlous, elvish rings, 'tis said:
still for the gold I'll keep it, yea
and so eke out my niggard pay.
Old Sauron bade me bring it back,
and yet, methinks, he has no lack
of weightier treasures in his hoard:
the greater the greedier the lord!
So mark ye, mates, ye all shall swear
the hand of Barahir was bare!

Now the impression I get from the unrevised version is not much different from the impression I get of the Orcs in this chapter. Indeed, there are several touches in both versions that very strongly call to mind the Orcs of LotR. Note the Orc's description of Barahir: a 'robber fool' in the unrevised, 'robber-knave' in the revised version, who offered his 'rogue-service' to Felagund. It's exactly the same sentiment as the 'regular Elvish trick' comment.

So perhaps there is a change in the depiction of Orcs from pre-LotR to post-LotR, but if so it's rather a subtle one. We ought not to confuse the necessary difference in the depth of depiction between most of the Silmarillion material and LotR with a difference in the nature of that depiction.