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A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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This chapter tells us something of the nature of Hobbits. In dire circumstances, being abducted by a band of creatures straight out of a Hobbiton fireside horror story, Merry and Pippin still manage to show how brave they are. Boromir 88 has already noted how clever Hobbits can be, so I won't go over that again, but I also noticed what strength of character Hobbits can show.
Here Pippin is afraid and in pain, but he has the presence of mind instead to focus on what is going on about him and listen to what the orcs are saying: Quote:
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Gordon's alive!
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#2 | |||
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Laconic Loreman
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I also wanted to note again Boromir's horn, we first got a description in Moria.
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Lastly I wanted to point out the power of the lembas. Reminds me a lot of what we discussed in the Lothlorien chapter. Quote:
Pippin was the first to come back to the present.
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Fenris Penguin
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The World That Never Was
Posts: 1,232
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My resounding memory of this chapter is racing out of the theatre to read it after seeing Fellowship for the first time! I'd not finished reading Fellowship yet, and was very distressed at seeing my favourite characters being carted off by a pack of Uruk-hai. Since then, this chapter has been a favourite of mine.
![]() I whole-heartedly agree with Lalwendë on all counts. This chapter certainly shows the inate strength and tenacity possessed by all hobbits. (And proof to all the fangirls who don't appreciate Merry and Pippin! )Quote:
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![]() Abedithon le, ~ Saphy ~
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The Hitchhiking Ghost |
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Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
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That is about as final and desperate as it gets.
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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#5 |
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
Posts: 1,548
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"please believe me when I say that it was not out of kindness: that's not even one of Ugluk's faults."
(rather reminds you of Mordred's song "The Seven Deadly Virtues" in the musical Camelot). ![]() --------------------------------- Tolkien does a rather effective job of making orcs both very bad guys who have to be terminated with extreme prejudice, but also bits of showing them as individuals with their own (however warped) hopes and dreams, especially in a later chapter with Rosenkrantz and Gildenstern (Captains Gorbag and Shagrat). Although, of course, Grishnakh is a deliciously evil orc, with an echo or two of Smaug, the sort of character that would have made a great bit role in a movie if played differently (say by Dennis Hopper).
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Aure Entuluva! |
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Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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This aspect of Pippin is explored in more depth in this wonderful thread started by Kalimac: Pippin's Sixth Sense. As suggested there, there seems to be a link here with Pippin's curious attraction to the well in Moria and his fascination with the Palantir of Orthanc. In any event, it seems clear to me that Pippin works far more on intuition, whereas Merry is the more practical of the two - as indicated by his studies in Rivendell. And so on to the Orcs. In this Chapter, we have some wonderful characterisations of them. We have the 'Isengarders', typified by Uglúk - a proud, arrogant and brutal leader. In Grishnákh, we have a sly, calculating and chilling individual. And the ‘Northeners’ display the more cowardly and less organised aspects of Orcish character. In these Orcs, and those at Cirith Ungol, we have our only real glimpse of the ‘character‘ of evil. Sauron remains a dark, remote and shadowy presence throughout, while we only really meet Saruman in one Chapter (prior to the destruction of the Ring). We are not privy to any discussions involving the Balrog, and we only see the Nazgul and the Mouth of Sauron interacting with those who seek to oppose them. Quote:
But, that being the case, the question arises: Do Orcs have any choice in being evil? Oops! There it is. Can opened and worms wriggling everywhere. This is an issue that has been explored on may threads (Inherent Evil and Evil things to name but two), but it is one which still troubles me. It seems to me that Orcs in Middle-earth are inherently evil. While they might delight in their evil deeds, they have no choice but to act evilly. Who ever heard of a good Orc? And while it is conceivable that such a being might exist, it would seem to fly in the face of the way that they are presented throughout Tolkien's (published) works. Tolkien himself wrote: Quote:
And it seems that this is an issue which troubled Tolkien too in subsequent years, since (as I understand it) he began to re-think his ideas on the nature of Orcs - suggesting, for example, that they were in fact 'mere beats' directed by a greater evil will. But this idea does not square at all with the characterisation of the Orcs here and in the Cirith Ungol Chapters which add great 'colour' to the story and which, for the reasons that davem states, are important elements in helping us to understand just what it is that our protagonists are up against. Any ideas? A few further thoughts before I go. Do we see 'Orcish magic' in action here? While clearly not as wholesome or as pleasant, the Orc draught and Uglúk's medicine would appear to share some of the same properties as Elvish provisions. The draught revives the Hobbits and gives them a temporary burst of great stamina, while the medicine heals Merry's wound with unnatural speed. Are they perhaps the remnants of Elvish craft retained by the Orcs, albeit twisted versions (assuming that Orcs were, in their origins, corrupted Elves - wherein lies another can o' worms). The observation that Merry carried a brown scar to the end of his days is an interesting one, as it suggests to the reader that Merry is going to survive for some time yet. Although I never picked up on it before seeing it pointed out on another thread, it might somewhat lessen the suspense for the perceptive first-time reader. And, finally, I am impressed with Tolkien's description of the tactics used by the Rohirrim against the Orcs - the way that they drive them along the line of the river, surround them and then tempt them into wasting their arrows while minimising their own losses. He is similarly effective in describing ’medieval’ tactics elsewhere (the Battles of the Fords of Isen in Unfinished Tales, for example). I wonder how much he had studied tactics, since he seems well-versed in the subject. Possibly, despite the very different nature of the war, cavalry tactics remained part of the training regime during his service in WW1. Or perhaps he picked up his knowledge in this regard from his studies of epic literature.
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! Last edited by The Saucepan Man; 12-06-2004 at 09:07 PM. |
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#7 |
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Scion of The Faithful
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines]
Posts: 5,312
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This thing troubles me in this chapter:
Why is the badge of Saruman white? Why not a rainbow? Or anything multi-coloured?
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
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#8 |
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Deadnight Chanter
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I suppose it is white due to tradition - Saruman was white for so long, he grew accustomed to the title.
Besides, the white is more close to colourless, which is what Saruman, in fact, became, than any particular colour. Orcs re: Ahem. That's why, in a sense, difficulties are solved by supposition that Orkish leaders (as opposed to whole mass of 'beast-orcs') are, at least, not depraved of free will, but it does raise another difficulty – it is unmerciful to slaughter them, as they (assuming they have free will) are equals by rank of 'Good Chaps' And Tolkien obviously tries to solve the problem by a side exit. See: 1. Grishnákh is killed by stray arrow, following his own evil actions (Chance. Maybe even a suicide?) 2. Uglúk is slain in fair fight, as equal, by [dismounted] Éomer. 3. Shagrat and Gorbag kill each other off Beast-orcs, requiring direct control of Sauron’s will, disperse by themselves once there is no Sauron around to drive them, and ‘free-willed’ leaders are almost always given a chance – I can’t claim its truth, I can’t back myself up, but I always had a feeling that if only Uglúk prayed for mercy, he had a chance of being spared. Some meditations on the subject can be found on the main site: All About Orcs
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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