The Powers of the Istari

[drigel]

some of this debate is apples and oranges

If you consider Saurons influence over orcs compared to Gandalfs influence over men, then Sauron is the master no question.

Gandalf slew a balrog (and died in the struggle) which, although debatable, Sauron had no influence over, or command of. I postulate this based on the idea that if S did have command of the balrog, surely he would have brought him to Mordor to support his strategy concerning Gondor and the south, no?

JRRT IMO, used the istari characters as a literary tool to show the reluctance of the Vala in direct intervention in ME, and it's influence in the physical world. The end of the ancient ways, although Sauron was one of them. Its also a Valorian tip of the hat to the upcoming dominance of Men to not sally forth in their power and take care of the problem of Sauron. If this was not the case, and all Maiar spirits being equal in strenth, Manwe would have simply plopped Curumo on an eagle, dropped him atop Barad Dur, and taken care of S, while Ulmo would have a trout transport the ring to Osgiliath, where Aule could have taken it and.... blah blah blah etc

[gorthaur_cruel]

Since this old topic (judging by the date ) has been brought up again...This is what I wrote in a different topic, but I'll copy-paste it here:

I think that it is obvious that Gandalf was no match for Sauron in terms of sheer power. Tolkien himself sort of said this in letter #183(This was written as a note, so I only put in the actual note and the sentence that the note was referring to. And the passage is talking about Sauron):

...But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit.*

*Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order

I interpret "far higher order" meaning that Sauron was a far greater Maia than Gandalf or Saruman. The "same kind" obviously refers to the fact that they were all Maiar.

[obloquy]

Good research, g_c. I honestly have no clue what Tolkien meant by "far higher order." The Istari and Sauron were not of different orders. The letter is dated 1956, according to Google (I don't have access to any books right now), so maybe that has something to do with the inconsistency.

Anyway, like I said, good quote.

Edit: I've thought about this, and briefly discussed it with burrahobbit, but I still can't figure it out. The idea, which burra suggested to me, of "orders" of varied importance, rank, and power among the Maiar is, apart from this little note, unattested in Tolkien's writing. I cannot recall ever reading that the "order" that any Maia belonged to was anything other than Maia: Maia is, to my knowledge, the name of the order that defines an eala's "station." Some were more powerful than others, of course, and I have addressed that issue in my posts above, and I don't believe the veracity of my argument has been harmed. I say this because the note's wording is far too strong ("of a far higher order...") to adopt its assertion without support from other sources--such as the rest of Tolkien's writings, which I have used to develop my own argument.

[Mithalwen]

In UT it gives a note written in 1972 " We must assume that they were all Maiar, that is persons of the 'angelic' order, though not necessarily of the same rank....Saruman is said to be chief..Gandalf was evidently the next. Radagast is presented as a person of much less power and wisdom..."


The letter was dated 1956? In that case, it seems to me that it is an inconstancy in use of vocabulary rather than concept. In the note of '72 he uses order to refer to the "Maia" collectively and rank to distinguish between power levels within that order. In the letter he uses kind to refer to the Maiar and order for the divisions... given the 16 year gap.... I think we can let him off... it is clearly the same idea



http://www.sarahsarchangels.com/archangels/9orders.html

[obloquy]

For the sake of keeping all the relevant text in the same thread, I'm resurrecting this in order to post a bit more relating to the note mentioned in gorthaur_cruel's post.

First, another couple of letters from the same time period tell us that Sauron was a Maia originally attached to Melkor, rather than Aule. This is an aspect of Sauron's origin that we all know was revised after the cited letter of 1956.

Secondly, a portion of letter 246 of 1963 is doubly pertinent to this discussion:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master [Sauron]--being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.

Not only are Gandalf and Sauron "of the same order" here, but Gandalf "might be expected to master Sauron."

[Raynor]

I interpret "far higher order" meaning that Sauron was a far greater Maia than Gandalf or Saruman.

I believe that a "far higher order" would reffer to the difference between an embodied istar and Sauron; an istar would assume many weaknesses specific to a Man's body (cf. The Istari, UT), and the "needs to learn much anew by slow experience".

Not only are Gandalf and Sauron "of the same order" here, but Gandalf "might be expected to master Sauron."

I believe it is relevant to mention the two reasons given in the letter for this:

It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors.

It would be interesting to explore what "superior strength" implies. Galadriel says that a ring would give power according to the measure of its (or at least after a while, if the wielder is not powerful enough); we would also need to speculate, if possible at all, how much Sauron's corruptions diminished his power.

[denethorthefirst]

I posted the following post first in the "sex among Maiar" thread in the newcomers-section, but its also relevant to this topic and i would like to know what you think.

We know that Ainur appear in three different states: "unclothed" (their natural, invisible state), "clothed" (they could take whatever form they liked) and incarnated (incarnated Ainu are bound to their form/body and can no longer change it at will; if it is killed/destroyed they cant form a new one and are doomed to spend the rest of their existence as relatively powerless spirits) (See also this thread: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=5879 )

I think that there are two different forms of incarnation.

A "conventionally biological" (for lack of a better word) incarnation, where the Ainu actually forms a fairly conventional body (modeled after the incarnates) that has a complete organ system. This is the form of Incarnation that the Istari, Melian and also the Umaia in orcform (Boldogs) went through. These Ainur actually became human, elvish (or orcish) in form (and dependent on nourishment and sleep), but can now also reproduce with other true incarnates (i dont think that two incarnated ainu could reproduce).
I guess that this form of Incarnation is much more limiting for the innate Power of the Ainu and that Ainur that incarnated in such a way could be much more easily killed than an Ainu that incarnated himself in the other way. It also seems that they did not to do it entirely out of free will: the Istari had to because it was a requirement for their mission, Melian did it out of Love for Thingol and to conceive, and the Boldogs probably because they lacked the Power for mightier Forms or where maybe forced by Melkor in order to procreate with Orcs.

A "unique" (for lack of a better word) incarnation where the ainu creates a wholly new and original form for himself that acts more like a "biological machine" than an actual body. It could either lack an organ system, or have an organ system that is much more complex than that of the incarnates or animals. I think the bodies of the Balrogs and the incarnated Sauron where of this kind. If the bodies of the Balrogs were completely "biological" (like for example a human body) they would have burnt to death a long time ago. Ainur like that are probably also much harder to kill, because you cant just stab them in the heart (there might be no heart, or there are three hearts! everything is possible), the opponents actually had to destroy or somehow "break" the "form" of the Ainu. They are also less (if at all) dependent on nourishment and sleep. I guess that Ainur that incarnated in such a way were also physically a lot stronger and could better project their innate Power because they (rather voluntary) chose and created a form that completely suited them, but they probably couldn't conceive or impregnate other incarnates because they would not have been "compatible".

I dont think that Olorin (before his Incarnation) was as powerful as Sauron, but even if that were the case, he was (because of their different forms of incarnation) not as powerful as Sauron in Middle-earth: his human body limited and restricted his innate power (and he also needed food, rest, sleep, he had a human organ system that could be damaged etc.) whereas Sauron had created for himself a unique form that was much harder to destroy and allowed him to better project his innate power.

Tolkien wrote about the Incarnation of the Istari in Letter 156:

I wd. venture to say that he (Gandalf) was an incarnate 'angel'– strictly an γγελος: that is, with the other Istari, wizards, 'those who know', an emissary from the Lords of the West, sent to Middle-earth, as the great crisis of Sauron loomed on the horizon. By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour. Why they should take such a form is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world of this fable. At this point in the fabulous history the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane, and so that they should do what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just to do the job for them. They thus appeared as 'old' sage figures. But in this 'mythology' all the 'angelic' powers concerned with this world were capable of many degrees of error and failing between the absolute Satanic rebellion and evil of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron, and the fainéance of some of the other higher powers or 'gods'. The 'wizards' were not exempt, indeed being incarnate were more likely to stray, or err.

--> "At this point in the fabulous history the purpose (of the incarnation of the Istari) was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of "power"."
Tolkien is quite clear that the human bodies restricted ("limited") the innate Power of the Istari. Of course they still had some magical potential, but they weren't as powerful as they were when clothed, or if they had built for themselves forms that completely suited them.

Here are the already mentioned quotes from Tolkiens Letters:

In his (Saurons) actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it (the One Ring) from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. ... Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.

...But he (Sauron) went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit.*

*Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order

Sauron and Gandalf are of "the same order" because they are (or were in Saurons case) both Maiar (and Ainur). That doesnt mean that they are equally powerful.
The second quote that Sauron was of a "far higher order" proves that not all Maiar (or Ainur for that matter) were equally powerful and that Sauron especially was one of the more powerful Maiar. Tolkien uses the same word in both quotes/letters, but it has different meanings: In the first quote he could mean either "Order of the Maiar" or "Order of the Ainur" (in the second quote Tolkien uses the phrase "of the same kind" to express this), whereas in the second quote "Order" means "Level of Power".
For example: Aiwendil and Manwe are beings of the same Order (both are Ainur) but Manwe is a being of a far higher order (he is much more powerful).
"Vala" and "Maia" are merely Job-descriptions for the Ainur. For all we know there could be some Maiar that were more powerful than some Valar, but because of their character and interests they ended up as "helpers" under a Vala that was more powerful. It is quite possible for example that Sauron was more powerful than some of the lesser Valar like Nessa or Vana, but because of his character and his love for construction he became a "helper" (Maia) of Aule, who was also more powerful than him.
Tolkien wrote that Gandalf might be expected to master him, if he actually could is debatable. Tolkien did not write that Gandalf could, or even might, master him, but that he might be "expected" to master him; Tolkien leaves the question open, but I think that, because of the vague nature of the statement, he was merely stating a hypothetical possibility (resting on the fact that both are Ainur) and that Gandalf could not actually do it.