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Old 11-30-2004, 09:27 PM   #1
Encaitare
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Here is the response I made to davem's post, in the last CbC thread by accident, reposted here in case anyone's interested:

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Just a thought in response to davem's final question:

Quote:
In the end (at the end), we see the people of Gondor accepting Aragorn as their ruler - but is that simply because he has lead them to victory in the war against Sauron, or is there more to it - has he shown, besides that, that he is truly the divinely appointed King?
This made me think of Malbeth's prediction about Aragorn:

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The heir of him to whom the oath they swore.
From the North shall he come, need shall drive him:
he shall pass the Door to the Paths of the Dead.
Now, I don't know if the average Gondorian would be familiar with these words, but some record of them must have been kept. Perhaps another reason Aragorn was so readily accepted as king, on top of the fact that he led them to victory, is that his coming and his lineage were foretold in prophecy?
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Old 12-01-2004, 03:23 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Mark
Denethor would like to think so. But he can hardly be credited with clear vision; perhaps once he had it, but lately his favorite viewing was what Sauron allowed him to see, which thoroughly skewed his judgement. And Aragorn had looked into the palantir by then, so Sauron knew about him. Certainly Sauron didn't want Denethor welcoming Aragorn back.
Of course, but that doesn't invalidate his motivation or his percieved responsibility. If the role of Steward did involve the kind of responsibility I'm talking about then Denethor would have felt he had the responsibility to ensure only one with the right to rule took up the crown.

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Originally Posted by SpM
As to whether he has a “divine right” to rule, I must say that the point seems rather moot to me. If he had not gained the support of the people of Gondor, then divine right would have counted for little.
I suppose the question is whether the people took his 'divine right' into account - were they simply choosing him as king because he had lead them to victory, or were they taking that victory as confirmation that he was divinely appointed?

In other words, were they awaiting the divinely appointed king & Aragorn's victory proved to them that that's who he was, or was their sole criteria for judging that he had beaten Sauron?

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Originally Posted by Lalwende
]I am certain that Aragorn has something of the ‘otherworld’ about him; after all, he has spent his youth in Rivendell and is one of few Men ever to be welcomed in Lorien.
He's quite similar to Lancelot in that way - brought up by the Lady of the Lake (ie the OtherWorld).

Oh, & I wonder if the light which Legoals sees on Aragorn's brow is in any way meant to echo the tongues of flame which descend on the apostles at Pentecost.
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Old 12-01-2004, 07:00 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by davem
I suppose the question is whether the people took his 'divine right' into account - were they simply choosing him as king because he had lead them to victory, or were they taking that victory as confirmation that he was divinely appointed?
Well, as has been pointed out on Boromir88's Aragorn's political skills thread (and by Helen above), Aragorn's acceptance by the people of Gondor was not simply down to his military skills. There is also his bearing, his nobility, his heritage, his humility, his leadership, his healing skills - the list could go on. It is these qualities, taken as a whole, that influence the people of Gondor. (And it is many of these qualities that inspire trust in Eomer in this Chapter too.)

Now it may be argued that many of these qualities bear the hallmark of Eru's influence, in which case, yes, there is an element of (indirect) divine right in Aragorn's claim and acceptance. And I think that Legolas' "vision" here is good supporting evidence of this argument and Tolkien's intentions in this regard.
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Old 12-01-2004, 07:02 AM   #4
Estelyn Telcontar
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Originally Posted by davem
Oh, & I wonder if the light which Legolas sees on Aragorn's brow is in any way meant to echo the tongues of flame which descend on the apostles at Pentecost.
A very interesting thought, davem! If so, that would be an additional sign of his divine anointment to kingship, since the Pentecost flames were a sign of the Holy Spirit's presence, anointing the persons for service to God.
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Old 12-01-2004, 07:29 AM   #5
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Well, as has been pointed out on Boromir88's Aragorn's political skills thread (and by Helen above), Aragorn's acceptance by the people of Gondor was not simply down to his military skills. There is also his bearing, his nobility, his heritage, his humility, his leadership, his healing skills - the list could go on. It is these qualities, taken as a whole, that influence the people of Gondor. (And it is many of these qualities that inspire trust in Eomer in this Chapter too.)
Aragorn must have these attributes in order to credibly take back his 'kingship', both in terms of whether the populace would accept him and in terms of retaining his good character in the eyes of the reader. This is especially true when he could potentially be set against Faramir, who himself is an incredibly admirable leader. But to have the 'divine right/light' gives Aragorn an edge over Faramir; he is visibly the genuine king.

This brings to mind another instance where a King returns to his 'divine right', that of Charles II; the circumstances of this return follow the English 'republic' (there's some question over this however...) which proved unsuccessful in the end, as has done the Stewardship with Denethor's poor judgement. Though maybe I will develop the thinking on this one for Boromir 88's politics thread as it's a tad thorny.

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He's quite similar to Lancelot in that way - brought up by the Lady of the Lake (ie the OtherWorld).
The name Lancelot has roots in Celtic words for 'white', which is reflected in Aragorn's 'light'. And, Aragorn is taken by his mother to be brought up in Rivendell - does she 'give him up' to the Elves? This reminds me of folklore of children being taken down into the underworld and being brought up by faeries. Although I have often wondered if Tolkien intended to make Aragorn some kind of Arthurian figure, coming to rescue his land and people at their greatest hour of need. Instead of being entombed in a cave with his warriors, Aragorn has been exiled with his Rangers. He also carries a legendary sword, though this one is 'birthed' in fire rather than water.
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Old 12-01-2004, 02:11 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Lalwende
The name Lancelot has roots in Celtic words for 'white', which is reflected in Aragorn's 'light'.
And if Aragorn is 'Lancelot', is Frodo then Galahad, the one who achieves the Grail Quest? Of coursem the similarities an't be pushed too far, as Lancelot failed, & betrayed Arthur, while Aragorn succeeded, but in a sense Aragorn is a successful Lancelot - he didn't sucumb to his desires but accepted his true destiny.

Its this distinction between Destiny & Fate which Tolkien seems to be exploring in the tales of Aragorn & Frodo. Destiny is not fate, because it can be accepted or rejected. There is freedom of choice in Destiny, but not so with fate. Frodo's fate was sealed when he took up the Ring - effectively he became a 'servant' & had to submit - in fact, the times he comes closest to failing are those moments when he tries to take control of situations - when he casts aside that 'power of another kind' which Gandalf says is present in the Shire - humility. Frodo is humble before his fate, submitting to it & it carries him forward to his destined end. When Frodo refuses to be humble, when he treats fate as destiny, something he can accept or reject is when he comes closest to disaster.

Aragorn, on the other hand, comes closest to failing when he treats his Destiny as fate - expecting circumstances to sweep him along without effort - hence all his complaints about things not working out as he wished. These early chapters of books 3&4 show the two heroes coming to a realisation of their respective roles. Frodo realises he must become a 'servant' of fate, Aragorn a master of his destiny.

As Aragorn says of Frodo & Sam, theirs has been the hardest road, & so it was, because submission, humility, service, is harder to bear than rulership, yet it is Frodo & Sam's humble service which saves the world, not Aragorn's power & dominance in battle.

Not a very 21st century message.
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Old 12-01-2004, 02:38 PM   #7
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Not a very 21st century message.
It may not be a modern message, yet it has a lot of relevance for our world. In Aragorn coming to terms with his destiny he shows that acceptance of what must be done is the correct path to take, and that merely having the choice to accept or reject that Destiny can be a very dangerous thing. Aragorn can go one way or the other, and on his shoulders lies much responsibility. He is in the situation of the 'boss' who will take the blame if everything goes wrong.

Yet Frodo is the one under the bigger amount of pressure. In order to achieve what fate has told him he must do, he has to accept humility; then he must forego his status and allow his ego to be damaged - something that not many of us today would be prepared to accept as we all wish to attain 'status'. It is now being shown that stress is suffered more by those without choice or power in their daily lives; Frodo must undergo this lack of control, unlike Aragorn, who does have the choice, and who does have power.
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Old 12-02-2004, 08:21 AM   #8
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Some very nice points about Aragorn that I would like to pick up on, as this really is his chapter.

The issue of choice and Destiny (lovely distinction you make, davem, between Frodo-Aragorn and Fate-Destiny) undergoes a profound shift in this chapter. To this point, the story has been concerned with the choices that Aragorn must make, but with his introduction to Eomer, suddenly something new happens. Rather than Aragorn making a choice, he becomes the choice:

Quote:
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Anduril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!" he cried. "I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dunadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!"
This has already been quoted, but I thought it deserved to be so again (I just love it so). The choice that Aragorn is presenting to Eomer is a simple one: “aid me or thwart me” – in effect, he is demanding that Eomer make a choice between Aragorn and not-Aragorn. This is part and parcel of that other choice Eomer must make: or, rather, it is just another way of looking at or thinking about the choice that Eomer must make – that between right and wrong:

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“Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man’s part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.”
The choice of whether to accept or reject Aragorn has become the same choice as between “good and ill.” This is not hubris on the part of Aragorn, but his acceptance of his own nature as a tool of Providence. His mission is of and for the Good, aid him and you aid the Good, hinder him and you do ill. What is breath-taking to me is that Aragorn not only knows this now but is able to bear up with the responsibility without it crushing him. He has taken upon himself the really hard part (Doing Good) leaving everyone else the (relatively, comparatively) easier choice of helping him or not. This is what a hero is supposed to be, I think (at least for Tolkien): someone who is willing and able to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves, and not in a militaristic/warrior mode. It’s significant that the destruction of the orcs and the rescue of the hobbits is not accomplished by Aragorn. In this chapter we learn quite explicitly that the job of killing has been left to the Rohirrim, and that Aragorn’s heroic task is quite different. It is to emerge from legend and claim his right as the leader of Men; at the same time, he presents his followers with a real challenge – it’s no easy thing choosing to aid him, as it entails real dangers.

That light which flickers around his brows is seen only by the Elf, so I have a hard time seeing it as some kind of overt sign of his right to rule Men. Instead, I think that moment speaks more about Legolas than Aragorn, for it charts the Elf’s reaction to the challenge presented by Aragorn. To Men, he appears as a great Man and King of old; one who commands their allegiance and demands that they make a hard choice about him. For the Elf, over whom he does not have sovereignty, he reveals that Numenorean aspect of his lineage that is Elvish.

It’s as though Aragorn is finally so confident and integrated in himself that he begins to present the same challenge to others that he has successfully overcome in himself. One of the nicer ways that this is demonstrated in the chapter is his use of his tracking, Ranger skills. To this point in the story, he has only really ‘been’ a Ranger from Bree to Rivendell, so it might appear ironic that in the very chapter that he emerges as the heir of Elendil that he is also acting as a Ranger once more – but I think it makes perfect sense insofar as he is no longer torn, but an integrated self. He is both Strider (Telcontar) and Aragorn (Elessar), and its this unity of self that gives him the remarkable strength and purpose with which to command (or challenge?) the loyalties of other men.
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