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Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 1,814
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Here is the response I made to davem's post, in the last CbC thread by accident, reposted here in case anyone's interested:
----------------- Just a thought in response to davem's final question: Quote:
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#2 | |||
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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In other words, were they awaiting the divinely appointed king & Aragorn's victory proved to them that that's who he was, or was their sole criteria for judging that he had beaten Sauron? Quote:
Oh, & I wonder if the light which Legoals sees on Aragorn's brow is in any way meant to echo the tongues of flame which descend on the apostles at Pentecost. |
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#3 | |
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Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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Now it may be argued that many of these qualities bear the hallmark of Eru's influence, in which case, yes, there is an element of (indirect) divine right in Aragorn's claim and acceptance. And I think that Legolas' "vision" here is good supporting evidence of this argument and Tolkien's intentions in this regard.
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
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#4 | |
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Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#5 | ||
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A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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This brings to mind another instance where a King returns to his 'divine right', that of Charles II; the circumstances of this return follow the English 'republic' (there's some question over this however...) which proved unsuccessful in the end, as has done the Stewardship with Denethor's poor judgement. Though maybe I will develop the thinking on this one for Boromir 88's politics thread as it's a tad thorny. Quote:
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Gordon's alive!
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#6 | |
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Its this distinction between Destiny & Fate which Tolkien seems to be exploring in the tales of Aragorn & Frodo. Destiny is not fate, because it can be accepted or rejected. There is freedom of choice in Destiny, but not so with fate. Frodo's fate was sealed when he took up the Ring - effectively he became a 'servant' & had to submit - in fact, the times he comes closest to failing are those moments when he tries to take control of situations - when he casts aside that 'power of another kind' which Gandalf says is present in the Shire - humility. Frodo is humble before his fate, submitting to it & it carries him forward to his destined end. When Frodo refuses to be humble, when he treats fate as destiny, something he can accept or reject is when he comes closest to disaster. Aragorn, on the other hand, comes closest to failing when he treats his Destiny as fate - expecting circumstances to sweep him along without effort - hence all his complaints about things not working out as he wished. These early chapters of books 3&4 show the two heroes coming to a realisation of their respective roles. Frodo realises he must become a 'servant' of fate, Aragorn a master of his destiny. As Aragorn says of Frodo & Sam, theirs has been the hardest road, & so it was, because submission, humility, service, is harder to bear than rulership, yet it is Frodo & Sam's humble service which saves the world, not Aragorn's power & dominance in battle. Not a very 21st century message. |
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#7 | |
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A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Yet Frodo is the one under the bigger amount of pressure. In order to achieve what fate has told him he must do, he has to accept humility; then he must forego his status and allow his ego to be damaged - something that not many of us today would be prepared to accept as we all wish to attain 'status'. It is now being shown that stress is suffered more by those without choice or power in their daily lives; Frodo must undergo this lack of control, unlike Aragorn, who does have the choice, and who does have power.
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Gordon's alive!
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#8 | ||
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Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
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Some very nice points about Aragorn that I would like to pick up on, as this really is his chapter.
The issue of choice and Destiny (lovely distinction you make, davem, between Frodo-Aragorn and Fate-Destiny) undergoes a profound shift in this chapter. To this point, the story has been concerned with the choices that Aragorn must make, but with his introduction to Eomer, suddenly something new happens. Rather than Aragorn making a choice, he becomes the choice: Quote:
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That light which flickers around his brows is seen only by the Elf, so I have a hard time seeing it as some kind of overt sign of his right to rule Men. Instead, I think that moment speaks more about Legolas than Aragorn, for it charts the Elf’s reaction to the challenge presented by Aragorn. To Men, he appears as a great Man and King of old; one who commands their allegiance and demands that they make a hard choice about him. For the Elf, over whom he does not have sovereignty, he reveals that Numenorean aspect of his lineage that is Elvish. It’s as though Aragorn is finally so confident and integrated in himself that he begins to present the same challenge to others that he has successfully overcome in himself. One of the nicer ways that this is demonstrated in the chapter is his use of his tracking, Ranger skills. To this point in the story, he has only really ‘been’ a Ranger from Bree to Rivendell, so it might appear ironic that in the very chapter that he emerges as the heir of Elendil that he is also acting as a Ranger once more – but I think it makes perfect sense insofar as he is no longer torn, but an integrated self. He is both Strider (Telcontar) and Aragorn (Elessar), and its this unity of self that gives him the remarkable strength and purpose with which to command (or challenge?) the loyalties of other men.
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Scribbling scrabbling. |
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