Best Movie Setting

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I'm rather surprised one well-done scene hasn't been mentioned (I think),
the setting and action around the Doors of Moria, including an acceptable Watcher. Of course, they had the book illustration to go by.

And I was disappointed at the small size of Edoras. On the other hand,
the muster of Rohan was conveyed well (and briefly) by the scene from the
mountain looking down on the muster.

Poor scene: PJ getting wrong Theoden's charge at Helm's Deep. There were
many more then the three or four horsemen shown (and if you watch, you can
see some orcs just jumping off the causeway- not attacked or pushed).
From: The Atlas of Middle-earth , p. 148:

Instead of Orcs pouring into the Hornburg, however, Theoden led forth his Riders, perhaps nine hundred or so if about half the surviving defenders had escaped to the caves. So powerful and sudden was their onset that Saruman's forces (though far greater in number despite casualties) were driven in rout back to Helm's Deep.

Sorry, but this error irritates me, especially since Bakshi made the same mistake
in his animated version. The point is, even without the ents, the surviving defenders, plus Gandalf and Erkenbrand's boys, were not a totally spent force.
Estimates are about, by the time of the charge, about 3,800 Rohirrim (and
Gandalf!) vs. c. 7-9,000 bad guys (depending on their casualties. In other
words, some 1,500-2,000 of them with Theoden as contrasted to the 5 or 6 people the movie seems to suggest!

But there were worthy scenes in TTT movie, especially the opening chase scenes
with the Three Hunters (ignoring the comic relief use of Gimli ).

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

And I was disappointed at the small size of Edoras.

Like many (most in fact) of the settings, Edoras was just as I had imagined it. I have seen many comments to the effect that it should have been larger as it was the "capital" of Rohan. But Rohan was sparsely populated and many of its inhabitants remained semi-nomadic, tending to their herds on the plains and "living in camp and tent" (The Riders of Rohan). So I would not expect their settlements to be particulary large, and have never imagined Edoras to be a great city (in terms of its size).

As I have indicated, I was amazed at how accurately the films captured my own vision of most of the locations. Although I do wonder how much this is because my picture of Middle-earth has been influenced by the considerable amount of "Tolkien art" that I have seen over the years. After all, the two foremost Tolkien artists were central to the design team (and their work has itself influenced many others).

The only real disappointment for me was Fangorn. Its verges, where the Three Hunters come across the charred remains of the Orcs, lacked realism, particularly as the forest just "started" rather than gradually building up as (non-commercial) forests tend to. It looked more like a wall of trees. And Fangorn itself seemed much more like a set (which of course it was) than many of the other locations.

[Lush]

Moria Moria Moria. A thousand times: MORIA. Gave me goosebumps the first time I saw it, and still does. The music was especially helpful in that sense. Both gorgeous and with a hint of tragedy.

Tuor mentioned the Doors of Moria, and I have to agree. There was something about that entire scene, the energy, the dialogue, the colours, I was overwhelmed. It had this peculiar feeling of descending into a crypt and a grand adventure all at the same time.

*major goosebumps*

[Essex]

Tuor,
It's very easy to get swept up in other people's INTERPRETATIONS of what tolkien was writing. You mention the Atlas of Middle-earth. A lot of this is, let's be frank, Guesswork. Just as the films can sometimes cloud our minds if we see too much of them and forget what actually happened.

I will of course take this point back if I can find anything that mentions the number of Theoden's Company as he charged the orcs in other Tolkien works, ie Unfinished Tales. This may be where the author of the Atlas got the info from.....

To quote the book:

And with that shout the king came. His horse was white as snow, golden was his shield, and his spear was long. At his right hand was Aragorn, Elendil's heir, behind him rode the lords of the House of Eorl the Young.

Yes, no dobut more than 3 or 4, but I don't believe it would be anywhere near 900 or so.........

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Poor scene: PJ getting wrong Theoden's charge at Helm's Deep. There were many more then the three or four horsemen shown (and if you watch, you can see some orcs just jumping off the causeway- not attacked or pushed).

In both book and film, the battle of the Hornburg goes badly for the defenders and Theoden's charge is a last, desperate and defiant, measure. I would agree that there were many less involved in the charge in the film than in the book, but then there were a lot less defenders (at least proportionate to the attackers) generally in the film than in the book. In my view, there were good cinematic reasons for this, primarily to heighten the tension and desperation so as to provide a thrilling climax to the second film. Of course, this version of the battle will not appeal to everyone, and that's fine. My point simply is that it was not done gratuitously, but for good reasons.

On this board, many of Jackson et al's changes are consistently described as "screw-ups" or "mistakes". I have to say that these words in this context rather irk me, since I would not categorise them as such, but rather as judgments based on the constraints (and opportunities) of the medium and/or particular themes and aspects that they wanted to bring out. Whether the judgment made is right or wrong is generally down to the individual viewer's reaction.

As for the realism of the Orcs falling off the causeway, I appreciate your point but it doesn't, for me, detract from the power of the moment. I suppose they were trying to convey the sheer force of the charge. I actually found the charge of Gandalf and Eomer less realistic because the horses leap into a wall of spears and pikes. All the Orcs had to do was stand firm and hold their pikes in front of them (sunlight notwithstanding). Nevertheless, I still had a lump in my throat as I watched this scene.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Both above are good points on Theoden's charge. As to Eomer's
movie charge I agree. I assume the rather absurd steep angle was
PJ's penchant for dramatic exaggeration, but you could also argue that
the orcs cracked psychologically, as could well happen at the end of
protracted combat when unexpected new enemies appear.

About the extent and effect of Theoden's charge, this occured to me
before the movies or the publishing of the Atlas of Middle-earth. Of
course Tolkien meant for it to be a desperate charge, but one reason it
was desperate was the defenders nonknowledge of imminent relief.
In this sense you can postulate a psychological effect on Saruman's army akin to the movie Eomer's charge, that is, when the book King sweeps the orcs and crams them past the Great Dike. Certainly Saruman's army still had numbers, but you can at least suggest the possibility of their panicking and, without the ents and huorns blocking them, retreating back across the Isen. History is replete with examples of superior numbers pschologically cracking:

The hosts of Isengard roared, swaying this way and that, turning from fear to fear. Again the horn sounded from the tower. Down through the breach of the Dike charged the king's company. Down from the hills leaped Erkenbrand, lord of Westfold. Down leaped Shadowfax, like a deer that leaps surefooted in the mountains. The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness. The wild men fell on their faces before him. The Orcs reeled and screamed and cast aside both sword and spear. Like a black smoke driven by a mounting wind they fled.

So without the huorns present it seems at least tenable that the orcs/wildmen might have retreated. The real problem, I'd suggest, is,
even if Theoden's forces managed a costly and hard-fought tactical victory, then
without the ents destroying Isengard Rohan would have found it necessary to
detach forces to guard it, hence leading to a later and weaker relief force to
MT, with obviously icky consequences for the good guys.

Hey, just a little "counterfactual" history surmising.

Oh, and as for the numbers postulated in "The Atlas of Middle-earth", the
raw numbers of c. 1,800 survivors at Helm's Deep seem tenable, although you could argue for perhaps 1,400-1,600 effective fighters by sunrise, and you can
assume most of the horses were fairly protected before the charge, but getting
at least 500 + organized to charge quickly during a siege does seem a major
challenge, but then it is the Realm of the Horselords.

[Bandobras Took]

All of the Ithilian sceans where amazing. osgiliath was awsome too. But The Shire will always be my favorite.