Is there any hope of redemption ...? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lalwendë · 11-30-2004, 01:01 PM

Those are very interesting quotes. It makes me wonder more about Sam and Gollum in relation to each other. Gollum is presented on the surface level as an evil creature, and Sam as inherently good; yet both are not necessarily these things. Gollum can repent, and Sam can be cruel. Yet more shades of grey in the morality of the story... This again sheds new light on the character of Frodo. He at first thinks of Gollum as evil, then he meets and comes to rely on him; Frodo cannot destroy the ring, and this might be seen as wrong, yet by taking on Gollum and trusting to him, he has done 'good'. Is this a particular type of Christian morality being displayed, in that mercy will eventually result in 'good'?Or is it some form of 'humanism' in that Frodo accepts the failings of another because he sees the common humanity (hobbitry?) in Gollum?

Of one thing I am sure, and that is that this clearly demonstrates the complexity in Tolkien's characters! A good one for arguments with critics.

Tuor of Gondolin · 11-30-2004, 01:25 PM

A bit more on Gollum/Sam, which I forgot to add above.

I also, on first reading LOTR, thought the saddest/most tragic moment
was Gollum's near repentence (and as an aside, why PJ and Andy Serkis
were so foolish in delighting in ROTK in portraying Gollum's change of heart
as being completely a ruse, against the accurate portrayal in TTT movie).

I actually think a really interesting version of LOTR would have been to
have Shelob kill off Frodo (sorry, Frodo fans

). This would have
led to a fascinating dynamic of Sam and Gollum from there to Mount Doom.
And, paranthetically, it would have quieted initial critics of LOTR that "all"
made it back safe (ignoring, of course, Boromir and the various kinds of
"losses" by the free peoples at the end of the tale).
Might Sam, as a longer term Ringbearer, have gained a greater appreciation
of Gollum's torment and been more inclined to forgiving and help redeeming
him? And as not so long a Ringbearer as Frodo, could he have resisted the
Ring's strength at the end? (Probably not, I think JRRT surmises somewhere
that the power of the Ring at Dol Guldur was too strong for anyone to
resist, which, if so, also helps to ease any criticism of Isildur).

HerenIstarion · 11-30-2004, 04:55 PM

Quote:

a really interesting version of LOTR would have been to have Shelob kill off Frodo

I suppose it would not be LoTR any longer

(I agree it would be interesting, but that would be quite different story)

11-30-2004, 01:01 PM	#1
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Those are very interesting quotes. It makes me wonder more about Sam and Gollum in relation to each other. Gollum is presented on the surface level as an evil creature, and Sam as inherently good; yet both are not necessarily these things. Gollum can repent, and Sam can be cruel. Yet more shades of grey in the morality of the story... This again sheds new light on the character of Frodo. He at first thinks of Gollum as evil, then he meets and comes to rely on him; Frodo cannot destroy the ring, and this might be seen as wrong, yet by taking on Gollum and trusting to him, he has done 'good'. Is this a particular type of Christian morality being displayed, in that mercy will eventually result in 'good'?Or is it some form of 'humanism' in that Frodo accepts the failings of another because he sees the common humanity (hobbitry?) in Gollum? Of one thing I am sure, and that is that this clearly demonstrates the complexity in Tolkien's characters! A good one for arguments with critics. __________________ Gordon's alive!

11-30-2004, 01:25 PM	#2
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	A bit more on Gollum/Sam, which I forgot to add above. I also, on first reading LOTR, thought the saddest/most tragic moment was Gollum's near repentence (and as an aside, why PJ and Andy Serkis were so foolish in delighting in ROTK in portraying Gollum's change of heart as being completely a ruse, against the accurate portrayal in TTT movie). I actually think a really interesting version of LOTR would have been to have Shelob kill off Frodo (sorry, Frodo fans ). This would have led to a fascinating dynamic of Sam and Gollum from there to Mount Doom. And, paranthetically, it would have quieted initial critics of LOTR that "all" made it back safe (ignoring, of course, Boromir and the various kinds of "losses" by the free peoples at the end of the tale). Might Sam, as a longer term Ringbearer, have gained a greater appreciation of Gollum's torment and been more inclined to forgiving and help redeeming him? And as not so long a Ringbearer as Frodo, could he have resisted the Ring's strength at the end? (Probably not, I think JRRT surmises somewhere that the power of the Ring at Dol Guldur was too strong for anyone to resist, which, if so, also helps to ease any criticism of Isildur). __________________ Aure Entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin; 11-30-2004 at 01:32 PM.