Tolkien spiritualty... A hint of Buddhism?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Perhaps, then, this thread should be shifted to Novices and Newcomers where people have more freedom to discuss how they view these books that were written for our pleasure and personal insight, as opposed to how the books "should" be viewed. I believe there is currently a comparison there between Lord of the Rings and Peter Pan, although I don't remember Peter ever flying through Middle Earth.

I rather think this to be an interesting topic to look into, and an enlightening one at that, and I only regret that I am not knowledgable enough on the subject to add more.

Fea

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Perhaps, then, this thread should be shifted to Novices and Newcomers where people have more freedom to discuss how they view these books that were written for our pleasure and personal insight, as opposed to how the books "should" be viewed. I believe there is currently a comparison there between Lord of the Rings and Peter Pan, although I don't remember Peter ever flying through Middle Earth.

I rather think this to be an interesting topic to look into, and an enlightening one at that, and I only regret that I am not knowledgable enough on the subject to add more.

Fea

I don't mind. you may if you wish to. It might appeal to others in that part of the forum.

Respectfully,

The Ka

[Estelyn Telcontar]

It seems that a majority of posts on this thread are discussing the validity of this discussion rather than contributing to it. As this forum's moderator, I would like to speak out. We have a policy of friendly openness on the Barrow-Downs; our restrictions are that topics be Tolkien-related and that posts should be polite and respectful. Child has already shown that various viewpoints can be discussed in relation to LotR; those of you who remember Maril... will recall that she wrote about the Buddhist point of view on religion threads a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, she's not been around lately, or she would certainly be able to contribute to this discussion.

I am leaving this thread here on the Books forum and I am leaving it open for discussion. However, like all touchy themes, I will keep a close eye on the posting and will delete off-topic, impolite posts without warning. If you have nothing substantial to add to the topic, do not post. If it does not interest you, you need not read it. But variety is the spice of forum life, and as long as members post their opinions in an appropriate manner, the discussion can enrich this forum. Thank you! [/end of moderator's note]


Now for my personal thoughts on the topic:

Your thoughts on the topic are interesting, THE Ka; though we all know from Tolkien's own words that he wrote the story in a specifically Christian context, some of his concepts could be compared to Buddhist teaching. Everyone recognizes that there are also many elements of pagan religions included, especially the concept of "gods".

I would see the reincarnation theme in a more Christian than Buddhist context, for the reason mentioned above; the Elf is reincarnated in a body that is basically the same as his previous one. It is my understanding that in Buddhist teaching, what little I know about it, reincarnation serves the purpose of betterment, so that the individual takes on a different form in each life. The concept of a new, same body is closer to Christian resurrection, where persons will be recognizable in the afterlife.

As to the fate of Men, Tolkien does not say that they will "dissolve" into nothingness after death, just that the Elves do not know what humans' fate will be. I see no element of Nirvana there.

[HerenIstarion]

As the thread is 'still open' for discussion, and as Bb and Fordim haven't shown up yet, and, having burra's famous close-fistedness with regards to long discourses (in the light of verily true maxim of Nothing is more false than to say that all mockery is hostile), let me help you out if I can.

Leaving aside what Tolkien as author said (C-thread, c-thread, you take my breath away...), and relying mainly on what is inside his works, let me bring forth the judgement that there is no buddhist flavour to Tolkien whatsoever

The ground is simple:

Buddha's search for Nirvana (release from reincarnation circle) is based on the idea that body is, in a way, not what there should be, that soul/spirit living in a body is like to prisoner in a cell, that release is good, and living in a body is bad.

Now elves held an opinion that their hroar (generally, if not precisely may be translated as 'body') were made to perfectly fit their fëar (generally, if not precisely, may be translated as 'spirit'. I personally prefer translation 'will')
That they were not fitting each other perfectly was attributed to Melkor who 'tainted' all matter of Arda. But in case Arda were not Marred, such an union should have been perfect mode of being, bringing about incessant joy of existence. Fading of the elves, which can be reversed in Aman only, is due to imperfections of hroa brought about by Melkor, and the death is not release of reincarnation cycle - quite the opposite - it is proper for a fëa to seek reincarnation if it died. (Still more reincarnate takes up the same body as before - built out of its memories of it)

Men (or wise among men, Andreth as their spokeswoman) likewise, held an opinion that in the beginning of things, before Fall of Man took place, similar arrangement was provided for men, and that forcible parting of fëa with hroa known since as 'human death' was simultanesouly, a punishment for the Fall and means of redeeming it. I.e. - here too, perfect and only natural condition of created Children of Eru is viewed not as spirit on its own, but union of fëa and hroa as a whole. If such a 'divorce' ever takes place, is mainly 'thanks to' Melkor

I can imagine few things least like Buddhism in such philosophy, to be honest

I'm unable to provide quotes to back me up at the moment. If you are ready to take me on my word, great, if you're not satisfied, I'll try to dig citations up shortly

cheers

PS. Nothingness was already addressed by Estelyn, so I haven't elaborated the point. But 'dissoving into Nothingness' is a negative term. Positively, it should be 'being one with the whole Existence'. But even such 'positive' dissovling is not taking place with Tolkien - all fëar are not only to retain their hroar - they are, firstly, to have their hroar completely remade - as the Arda and whole the matter of Arda is to be Remade, and they are not only to retain their individuality, but have it enriched - not sameness, but multitude of perfect creaters, in correct relation to their Creator, sharing same love but conducting it in an unique way each.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Ka

This is proably the most noticed element of Buddhism and older Teutonic (European) spirituality

This is perhaps the relevant part as regards the legendarium. But it doesn't simply apply to Teutonic spirituality. The Celts certainly believed in the transmigration of souls - Caesar mentions it as a central aspect of Druidic teaching.

Where this concept does come in to an understanding of Tolkien is that his motivation (at least in the begining) was mot to create a brand new myth cycle, but to re-create what had originally existed. So, if the North-Western peoples (Celts, Teutons, Finns) had this belief, it must have had some origin. Tolkien was attempting to discover what those peoples had believed, why they believed it, & offer an account of it.

Now, obviously, he didn't leave it at that stage, & went on to develop the idea of Elvish reincarnation in various later works (tying himself in knots to a great extent) from a 'theological' perspective.

What we must keep in mind though, is that original intention - to provide an re creation of what had been. Where did the belief in reincarnation/transmigration of souls come from - why did our ancestors believe that happened? The Bible told Tolkien that humans do not reincarnate, but the idea of reincarnation was accepted by our ancestors.

There is a further issue - Tolkien was wishing to explore the question of mortality vs immortality, the ultimate question of why we die & how that affects our relationship to the world. He chose to do that by having two major races, one mortal, one immortal, one destined to inevitably pass from the world, one destined never to do so. Now, logically, no incarnate being can be physically indestructible - any physical object can be destroyed by a powerful enough force. But if the body of an 'immortal' being could be destroyed then some mechanism had to be found to keep that being in the world - otherwise it would not serve the purpose Tolkien needed it to serve - to be bound within the circles of the world for all eternity. Reincarnation in some form was probably the best he could come up with. It wouldn't be enough for them to simply hang around as ghosts (though his eventual idea of their fea burning away their hroa does seem to offer that destiny). They would have to be fully, physically, present within the world because this would emphasise their 'boundenedness' to the world, that they cannot leave it. Also, their nature expresses itself in art, in creativity, so that would require physicality.

And finally, we could bring in the Christian idea of incarnation - created beings are physically incarnate incarnate in a physical world. Body & soul are bound - for men temporarily, for Elves permanently - & this is the primary difference (for Tolkien's philosophical needs) between them.

I think Buddhism is the wrong way to go in this, as reincarnation is merely one aspect of that system, & is believed in for different reasons.

[mark12_30]

(A minor aside: Memory may be lacking but I thought elves were supposed to last as long as Middle-Earth, as Arda, and then after that nobody knew? Or does somebody eventually know within the legendarium?)

[HerenIstarion]

Or does somebody eventually know within the legendarium?)

Not certain knowledge, but supposition (backed up by 'joy of the heart' on Finrod's part, which is considered a sign of recognition of truth) by Finrod (in converse with Andreth) that in Arda Remade elves would be given the role of annalist-poets - to remember things that were before

That bodies should be remade is my own supposition, not groundless I believe, as it is stated that all matter is to be destroyed and than remade and, as bodies are made out of matter, and as hroar are stated to be essential for fëar and both's well-being, it is logical to suppose that to be probable too.

I discuss the passage in the Evil Things post #90 The citation as follows:

'But this is strange to me, and even as did your heart when I spoke of your unrest, so now mine leaps up as at the hearing of good news.

'This then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: to heal the Marring of Arda, already foreshadowed before their devising; and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Vision of the World!

'For that Arda Healed shall not be Arda Unmarred, but a third thing and a greater, and yet the same. I have conversed with the Valar who were present at the making of the Music ere the being of the World began. And now I wonder: Did they hear the end of the Music? Was there not something in or beyond the final chords of Eru which, being overwhelmed thereby, they did got perceive?
'Or again, since Eru is for ever free, maybe he made no Music and showed no Vision beyond a certain point. Beyond that point we cannot see or know, until by our own roads we come there, Valar or Eldar or Men.

'As may a master in the telling of tales keep hidden the greatest moment until it comes in due course. It may be guessed at indeed, in some measure, by those of us who have listened with full heart and mind; but so the teller would wish. In no wise is the surprise and wonder of his art thus diminished, for thus we share, as it were, in his authorship. But not so, if all were told us in a preface before we entered in!'

'What then would you say is the supreme moment that Eru has reserved?' Andreth asked.

'Ah, wise lady!' said Finrod. 'I am an Elda, and again I was thinking of my own people. But nay, of all the Children of Eru. I was thinking that by the Second Children we might have been delivered from death. For ever as we spoke of death being a division of the united, I thought in my heart of a death that is not so: but the ending together of both. For that is what lies before us, so far as our reason could see: the completion of Arda and its end, and therefore also of us children of Arda; the end when all the long lives of the Elves shall be wholly in the past.

'And then suddenly I beheld as a vision Arda Remade; and there the Eldar completed but not ended could abide in the present for ever, and there walk, maybe, with the Children of Men, their deliverers, and sing to them such songs as, even in the Bliss beyond bliss, should make the green valleys ring and the everlasting mountain-tops to throb like harps.'

[Suldaledhel]

As a Buddhist, I feel more than qualified to tackle this topic.

First, it my obligation to say that any connection between the metaphysical life cycle of the Elves and Buddhist principles is purely coincidental, as there are too many differences for it to be relevant. For instance, Elves who did some not too nice things, such as Feanor, have to spend a deal of time waiting around in the Halls of Mandos to think about what they've done and so on before ever being considered for their "new" body. There is no such thing in Buddhism - one dies and gets reborn, end of story. Past crimes are paid for in the current life... many people know this as Karma. Now, the astute may point out the similarities between the Elves' longing to stay in middle-earth and the concept of Dharma, but such things are purely coincidental. To my knowledge, Tolkien did not nearly have enough knowledge of Buddhist theorem to draw such a subtle metaphor.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, I'll elaborate (though in a simplistic manner, as I don't want to get too involved with these concepts). Dharma is the struggle that people face from living their lives with too many cravings, more or less, hence anyone wishing to become Buddha must relinquish many of these desires and strive for the Middle Path. Now, one could say that the Elves undergo a form of dharma by not reliquishing their desire to stay in Middle-earth and keep things the way they are, and must ultimately relinquish this desire and pass onto the West to achieve some form of enlightenment, but I personally feel this is a bit too sophisticated for Tolkien's intent, and too loosely based to draw a real comparison. After all, one could also argue that the elves are leaving for Valinor just because things will not change there, and that their desires will be fulfilled - not that they will not have any more desires.

Furthermore, as has already been pointed out, the Elves simply reinhabit the bodies they previously possessed. As devem eloquently pointed out, this is merely a facet of Christian incarnation - not Buddhist reincarnation. Also, the relationship between the Elves and the Ainur obliterates any hint of Buddhism. Even in Mahayana Buddhism, gods are largely seen as spirits who have already attained enlightenment, but forsake that state of pure existence to aid their brethren on earth who have no yet experienced Buddhahood. Now, I personally think the Valar are a little less than enlightened with their dealings with the Elves.

Regardless, while it is interesting to note some very elementary comparisons between the Elves and Buddhism, it is far too undeveloped to think that there is anything there. Especially when there are far more examples of these things in the mythologies that Tolkien based the Elves off of. I agree with davem - these are interesting things you are pointing out, but Buddhism is not the path to explore them with.

[Ainaserkewen]

Ahh, the voice of the knowing. Thank you Suldaledhel.

Though I agree that Buddhism might be too different to be wholly comparable to the Elves death cycles, I have a different side thought. When I think of the story of the elves, it seems very Japanese to me. And when I say Japanese it means that I've made my way through a lot of Japanese manga (comics) and many stories. All these fantasy stories are directly influenced by the Buddhist natures in Japanese culture. The story of the elves, though much more developed than most manga, is roughly similar. What I mean to say is that though I don't know the intricasies of the Buddhist religion, I can see where the Ka is coming from. The idea of reincarnation, though it is a Christian idea, when you think of it physically, it feels very foreign and exotic, and I'm a devote Roman Catholic. So, yes, it is probably coincidence that the elves resemble Buddhism, but it is still an interesting approach to the idea.