Tolkien spiritualty... A hint of Buddhism?

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Ok. In Buddhism you aren't reincarnated in an identical infant body, sometimes you are a butterfly. In Buddhism Men reincarnate, in Middle-earth Men do not reincarnate. Etc etc completely different.

I know, but the fact that there is the belief of reincarnation is similar to the fate of elves, i found a connection. I wasn't trying to say that men reincarnate (Arda), only that there is a connection betwix that ideal and the fate of elves. I used Buddhism because, it is more wildly known among readers compared to an example of New Age spirituality. Also, not all types of Buddhism believe in trans-reincarnation...

~Ka~

[Child of the 7th Age]

Burra, Son of Numenor,

I think we have to be careful in this context in judging what is and is not relevent. On the one hand, I think we can all concur that Tolkien was not Buddhist. To what extent the author was or was not familiar with Buddhist ideas and legends, I unfortunately do not know.

However, I remember that, for many days, dozens of posters engaged in debate on the canonicity thread concerning the degree to which the reader can bring his own ideas and backgrounds to the text versus the need to ferret out the intentions of the author. I am an historian and a curmudgeon and, because of that, I lean more to the latter camp. But it does seem to me there are points to be made in favor of the former approach.

All these folk with academic backgrounds in English actually "drove" me to search out the viewpoints of critics like Michel Foucault and Roland Barthes, especially the latter who advocates the "death of the author". In this situation, the reader has wide latitude in how he or she approaches the text without regard to a particular author's background or ideas. While I don't believe anyone here would advocate the "death" of Tolkien in this extreme sense, I do think there is something to be said about examining the text through our own experiences and viewpoints. The search for Buddhist or Jewish or explicitly environmental motifs would certainly fall under such a rubric.

Let me say that there are other scholars who have at least read LotR while searching for similar ideas. In the Lord of the Rings and Philosophy there is one chapter entitled "Talking Trees and Walking Mountains: Budhist and Taoist Themes in the Lord of the Rings" by Jennifer McMahon and B. Steve Csaki. I have not read it yet but it does seem to be a fairly serious philosophical treatment.

While I can contribute little that is substantive to this particular topic, I think we should be careful before we dismiss the idea overall. To talk in an abstract sense about the "freedom of the reader" in the canonicity thread is not enough. If that concept of freedom has real merit, we have to be willing to consider the possibility that some readers may find elements of Buddhism or another philosophy when they read LotR. As long as the viewpoint brought forward is not explicitly rejected by the text in question, I have no trouble living with that.

Anyone else have any opinions on this, or see elements of eastern thought as they read through LotR?

[Son of Númenor]

But what could one hope to gain from The Lord of the Rings if one looked at it in light of, say, Buddhist principles? It seems that if one chooses to view something in such a way, one will at best merely reaffirm his or her own beliefs. Taking away Buddhist ideas from The Lord of the Rings may be relevant to the reader's spiritual life, but it is certainly not relevant to share such ideas in this forum.

Example:

Poster: I saw many similarities between The Lord of the Rings and the canon of the Latvian Orthodox Church. So-and-so aspects of LotR are reminiscent of so-and-so beliefs officially held by the LOC.

Us: Yes, those do indeed appear to be similarities (or don't). So what?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Son of Numenor -

I am wholly unqualified to evaluate the ideas regarding reincarnation that The Ka has brought forward on this thread. I simply do not know enough about Buddhist thought to be able to judge her suggestion one way or another. What I am concerned about is that such questioning should not necessarily be dismissed out of hand.

Taking away Buddhist ideas from The Lord of the Rings may be relevant to the reader's spiritual life, but it is certainly not relevant to share such ideas in this forum.

I would respectfully disagree. It's not a question of religious belief but of the diverse thoughts and ideals that various human beings bring to the text as we read. Because we bring different backgrounds, we may see different things in the story. That raises another critical question. Just where do we draw the line in saying one idea merits consideration and another does not? Let me cite a few examples to illustrate my point.

Many, many Christian authors have written evaluations of LotR in recent years. A few of these critics, such as Joseph Pearce, are Catholic. Many more, however, are not. Professor Ralph Wood, for example, professor of theology at Baptist Baylor, explicitly acknowledges that he often approaches the text from a biblical vantage far different from Tolkien's. Another example is Robert Ellwood, professor emeritus of religion at the University of Southern California, who wrote Frodo's Quest from a theosophical viewpoint. Both of these men hold personal beliefs quite different from Tolkien (and from my own). It is their ideas that interest me.

We don't have to limit ourselves to questions of religion. There are many other examples of readers bringing ideas to the text that were different than Tolkien's own. Patrick Curry, for example, was a Greenpeace supporter in the 1980s. These ideas heavily influenced his own assessment of the environmental themes in Tolkien ( Defending Middle-earth: Tolkien - Myth and Modernity ). This viewpoint influenced the questions he raised and the ideas he put forward. While Tolkien was a "lover of trees", he was not involved with an organized ecological movement and his own views were expressed in a very different way. Just look at all the academic philosophers in Lord of the Rings and Philosophy who found reflections of many different individuals and schools in LotR ranging from Aristotle and Plato to the existentialists or Nietzsche.

It's interesting to note that the best studies not only suggest how certain ideas that interest a critic may be reflected in LotR, but also point out major differences as well. If I have a reservation about this thread, it is a practical one: I don't think we have any current Books posters who have enough background in eastern thought to speak knowledgeably to this question. (I could be mistaken here and, if so, I apologize for my own lack of knowledge.) And I would never claim that a topic such as this should take center stage in our discussions. But I don't see such questions as irrelevent.

It's possible we hold different views on this and may have to acknowledge that with a polite nod.

****************

Whoops! Where is Fordim or Bb when I need them? This is what happens when you listen to English professors and get curious enough to read modern criticism. (I spent a chunk of the afternoon reading Barthes.)

[Son of Númenor]

I think there should be some implication underlying any viewpoint expressed here on the Downs. There is no underlying implication that I can see in The Ka's post: is it that LotR has influenced, or was influenced by, Buddhism? Is it that Buddhists can find spiritual guidance in LotR?

This viewpoint influenced the questions he raised and the ideas he put forward. While Tolkien was a "lover of trees", he was not involved with an organized ecomogical movement and his own views were expressed in a very different way.

But Tolkien's views on the subject were expressed nonetheless -- unlike whatever views he may have had on Buddhism. Curry's book seems to have been written with a clear agenda of promoting ecological awareness. That is very different from merely stating similarities between The Lord of the Rings and a religion when the similarity is obviously coincidental, and when there is no supportable assertion or hypothesis drawn from the revelation of the similarities. A post about Tolkien's views about the environment, supported with evidence, from an environmentalist's point of view, might add to my understanding of Middle-earth (which is, I think we can all agree, the purpose of the Downs). I fail to see how a post about rough similarities between Buddhism and the 'mythological structures' of Middle-earth can do that.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Perhaps, then, this thread should be shifted to Novices and Newcomers where people have more freedom to discuss how they view these books that were written for our pleasure and personal insight, as opposed to how the books "should" be viewed. I believe there is currently a comparison there between Lord of the Rings and Peter Pan, although I don't remember Peter ever flying through Middle Earth.

I rather think this to be an interesting topic to look into, and an enlightening one at that, and I only regret that I am not knowledgable enough on the subject to add more.

Fea

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Perhaps, then, this thread should be shifted to Novices and Newcomers where people have more freedom to discuss how they view these books that were written for our pleasure and personal insight, as opposed to how the books "should" be viewed. I believe there is currently a comparison there between Lord of the Rings and Peter Pan, although I don't remember Peter ever flying through Middle Earth.

I rather think this to be an interesting topic to look into, and an enlightening one at that, and I only regret that I am not knowledgable enough on the subject to add more.

Fea

I don't mind. you may if you wish to. It might appeal to others in that part of the forum.

Respectfully,

The Ka