The true Istari - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Amrod the Hunter · 11-27-2004, 01:14 PM

The true power of Istari is in wisdom they have.Staff is only a tool wich represents their wisdom and channels their powers.It is not like Harry Potter where they can't cast spell without staff-for Istari magic is a part of their wisdom.

rutslegolas · 11-28-2004, 12:16 AM

Yes I agree with Amrod ,the Istari are less sort of wizards and more learned men in LOTR. Their main strength is their wisdom and their foresight,they indeed have magic but they only use it as a medium to show their powers.

For example Saruman did not use his staff to persuade the Dunland men to join him ,he awoke their ancient hatred against the Rohirrim.

The meaning of all this is that the Istari unlike the wizards of Harry Potter did not need their staff ,it was only a way to channel their powers .

Boromir88 · 11-28-2004, 06:35 AM

Good points Amrod and Rutslegolas. Also, the term "wizard" is more of a mortal name. The mortal races (mostly Men and Hobbits) see this man perform a power they don't have, it must be something "magical," so they call come up with the term "wizard."

Atleast in the Elves case, they don't call their powers "magic," they don't know the term. This shows me that they view their powers as more "natural," something that are in them. Mortal folk call their powers "magic," but the people who perform the magic, don't.

Quote:

The Mirror of Galadriel
"And you?" she said, turning to Sam. "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word for the deceits of the Enemy."

Galadriel makes a distinction between the term "magic," and her natural powers, she also makes a distinction between elven magic, and the deceits of the enemy. I view "wizard" as a more mortal term, sort of how Sam called the Elves' power "magic." Galadriel seems to refer to it as something completely different.

luthien-elvenprincess · 12-23-2004, 06:44 PM

Maybe the wizards' staff was just an extension of themselves, a part of the 'shape' they assumed when they entered the world. I find it interesting that the staffs were not named...Tolkien gave everything a name! Perhaps they had no name because they were not really an entity in themselves, but a part of the wizard.

Boromir88 · 12-23-2004, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Maybe the wizards' staff was just an extension of themselves, a part of the 'shape' they assumed when they entered the world. I find it interesting that the staffs were not named...Tolkien gave everything a name! Perhaps they had no name because they were not really an entity in themselves, but a part of the wizard.

You might be on to something. There obviously is some importance in the staff's if Gandalf gets another one after losing his. Also, the breaking of Saruman staff, signifies him out of the order and out of the Council. Saruman loses a bunch of his potency after his staff is broken. So what, he convinced Treebeard, and then a few brigands to go do his dirty work.

radagastly · 12-23-2004, 10:15 PM

I guess I always viewed the staffs of the wizards as more symbolic than anything, on a number of levels. They were clearly a badge of office of some kind, Like a sheriff's badge in an old western, or perhaps more like the winnow and crook carried by Egyptian Pharoahs. The winnow as a provider of grain, and the crook as carried by a shepherd, to guide and protect his flock. It was, in a way, a symbol of their office as Istari. In that capacity, I think it also served as a gentle reminder of their oath and duty in Middle Earth and of where they came from. They could not eat a meal, or smoke a pipe without finding a place to lay it aside safe (and not too far away!) Even in sleep, it would be nearby, the first thing you grab when you awaken. It came from Valinor yet anchored them to the land of Middle Earth and it was always with them.

It was also an outward symbol. Even when they first arrived in Middle Earth, the Istari appeared as old men, leaning on their staffs. This appearance was deliberatly designed to engender trust in them, in their wisdom and experience.

I don't believe the Wizards needed the staffs to perform magic. They were magic, in a very real sense. But without the staffs, they may have lost their way (or at least become lost more quickly) and they may have had more trouble gaining the trust and respect of the leaders of Middle Earth. "Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me. . ."

samwise7 · 01-06-2008, 12:27 PM

Saruman's outburst to Gandalf about "the staffs of the 5 wizards" indicates they all had staffs and used them for magical means. I do agree however that these were most likely focuses for their powers.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 01-10-2008, 09:29 AM

I agree with samwise7, which I think I explain on another thread... someplace.

11-28-2004, 12:16 AM	#2
rutslegolas Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In Elven Lands of India Posts: 533	Yes I agree with Amrod ,the Istari are less sort of wizards and more learned men in LOTR. Their main strength is their wisdom and their foresight,they indeed have magic but they only use it as a medium to show their powers. For example Saruman did not use his staff to persuade the Dunland men to join him ,he awoke their ancient hatred against the Rohirrim. The meaning of all this is that the Istari unlike the wizards of Harry Potter did not need their staff ,it was only a way to channel their powers . __________________ If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with the bull - The Phantom.

12-23-2004, 06:44 PM	#4
luthien-elvenprincess Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: what are you doing here? did you come here to eat my popcorn? Posts: 1,031	Maybe the wizards' staff was just an extension of themselves, a part of the 'shape' they assumed when they entered the world. I find it interesting that the staffs were not named...Tolkien gave everything a name! Perhaps they had no name because they were not really an entity in themselves, but a part of the wizard. __________________ York Peppermint Patties taste better than Pearson's Peppermint Patties! But, Junior Mints are the best!

12-23-2004, 10:15 PM	#6
radagastly Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Washington, D. C., USA Posts: 299	I guess I always viewed the staffs of the wizards as more symbolic than anything, on a number of levels. They were clearly a badge of office of some kind, Like a sheriff's badge in an old western, or perhaps more like the winnow and crook carried by Egyptian Pharoahs. The winnow as a provider of grain, and the crook as carried by a shepherd, to guide and protect his flock. It was, in a way, a symbol of their office as Istari. In that capacity, I think it also served as a gentle reminder of their oath and duty in Middle Earth and of where they came from. They could not eat a meal, or smoke a pipe without finding a place to lay it aside safe (and not too far away!) Even in sleep, it would be nearby, the first thing you grab when you awaken. It came from Valinor yet anchored them to the land of Middle Earth and it was always with them. It was also an outward symbol. Even when they first arrived in Middle Earth, the Istari appeared as old men, leaning on their staffs. This appearance was deliberatly designed to engender trust in them, in their wisdom and experience. I don't believe the Wizards needed the staffs to perform magic. They were magic, in a very real sense. But without the staffs, they may have lost their way (or at least become lost more quickly) and they may have had more trouble gaining the trust and respect of the leaders of Middle Earth. "Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me. . ." __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.

01-06-2008, 12:27 PM	#7
samwise7 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Youngwood, Pa USA Posts: 21	Saruman's outburst to Gandalf about "the staffs of the 5 wizards" indicates they all had staffs and used them for magical means. I do agree however that these were most likely focuses for their powers. __________________ A sane being would have given up, but Samwise burned with a magnificent madness; a growing obsession to surmount every obstacle. He knew he would try again, fail perhaps, and try once more, a thousand thousand times if need be.

01-10-2008, 09:29 AM	#8
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,230	I agree with samwise7, which I think I explain on another thread... someplace. __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.

11-27-2004, 01:14 PM	#1
Amrod the Hunter Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dol Amroth Posts: 54	The true power of Istari is in wisdom they have.Staff is only a tool wich represents their wisdom and channels their powers.It is not like Harry Potter where they can't cast spell without staff-for Istari magic is a part of their wisdom.