LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 01 - The Departure of Boromir

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

And the other choice he was pondering while in Lothlórien--going to Minas Tirith--was made irrelevant for the moment.

Boromir does of course entreat Aragorn to go to Minas Tirith to save his people and Aragorn promises him that it shall not fall. Given his 'destiny' Aragorn is, in a way, already obligated to defend Minas Tirith, but this promise to Boromir on his 'death-bed' is a weighty one to make.

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

One can't help wondering, what exactly Elrond knew at their setting out?

I think that Elrond was just exercising good common sense:

For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road.

At the outset, no one could know for sure what would befall the Fellowship. A good degree of 'flexibility' was required to cater for the precisely the kind of eventuality that occurs in this Chapter. The only one sworn to follow Frodo to the end was Sam, and he would have done his utmost to stick with Frodo, vow or no vow.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

For those of you discussing the heroic "wind" poems and the manner of their creation, here's some support to your idea from Tolkien:
Quote:

'Will shall be the sterner, hear the bolder, spirit the greater as our strength lessens.l'
It is here implied, as is indeed probable, that these words were not 'original,' but an ancient and honoured expression of heroic will; Beorhtwold is all the more, not the less, likely for that reason actually to have used them in his last hour.


Quotations all taken from Tolkien's "The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthem's Son" This is about the Old English battle poem, "The Battle of Maldon", which Helen is referring to.

So, the lament for Boromir was basically a kind of general purpose, fill in the blanks, funeral dirge?

It seems to me that the 'Maldon' lines are a 'general' statement while the Boromir verses are specific to the individual & the circumstances.

Besides, isn't it a bit 'off the peg' - shouldn't Boromir have had something 'made to measure'? I'm not sure the idea of them simply customising a standard 'shrink to fit' poem fits in with the mood of the occasion.

[Rimbaud]

Most societies develop funeral rites that follow set traditions, or 'off-the-peg'. Same for births and marriages, etc. I don't think following a respected formula diminishes the meaning, in this instance.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I’ve been thinking about the discussion about the nature of Amon Hen, and figured I would go to the source to see if there are any clues – by “the source” I mean, of course, philology.

In Old English, æmen means “uninhabited, desolate, desert”. An associated word is æmenne which means simply “solitude”. I think that this is pretty straightforward – Amon Sul and Amon Hen are both deserted places. More importantly, they are places of solitude, in the sense that in each there is a solitary battle or trial of the heroes (Frodo by the Witch King and then Sauron; Aragorn with himself as in each place he doubts his leadership and his decisions).

The “Hen” has proved a much more interesting riddle. In Old English, hen is a form of hēan which means “lowly, despised, mean, or abject”. But it can also mean “to raise, exalt or extol” (in certain contexts, when used with the associated words hien or hyn which mean “high” or “raised”). “Hen” is also sometimes used as prefix, in which case it is being used as a form of hēanes which means simply “something high, a high place, height.” Finally, it is also associated with “hienan” which means to “fell or prostrate” or “abase, humble, insult”, “accuse or condemn.”

I think it should be obvious by now the ways in which this little word hen can be applicable to the action of this chapter and the previous one. The Seat of Seeing is indeed in a high and desolate place, but it also marks a high point and a low point in the adventure. It is the place where Boromir is made abject, possibly even condemned of a crime or sin, but it is also where he is exalted and raised back up. I think that Aragorn as well goes from a low to a high, in terms of his spirits and his sense of doubt becoming a sense of heroic purpose. Perhaps Frodo, too, moves from a depressive and worried low to some kind of exalted height, when he heroically undertakes the Quest by himself. This is also a kind of ‘condemnation’ of him, however, insofar as he is now condemned to a terrible journey.

So putting it together I would think that “Amon Hen” means a place of solitary trial, in which the hero is raised up and exalted from a state of lowness. So it would appear that the Seat of Seeing is dependent, in some way, upon both the individual using it and some other power which watches over the locale. It is a deserted place of solitary trial (Frodo, Boromir and Aragorn all have their individual battles with their own inner doubts and despair). At the end of these struggles, they are all of them ‘exalted’ in some way, or raised up and aided during it. Frodo is aided by Gandalf during the struggle with Sauron, but it is Sam who lifts his spirits and goes with him to Mordor. Boromir is exalted by Aragorn. All this would appear to bear out my idea that this chapter is really about Aragorn, though, insofar as he exalts himself – unlike Boromir or Frodo he does not turn to another to lift him from his abject lowness, but proceeds to become the King-Hero he is meant to be by dint of his own efforts. Perhaps this is why Frodo sees so much from the Seat, while Aragorn does not: Frodo requires and will require the aid of others for the completion of his journey, so he is ‘given’ some vision by the place, whereas Aragorn must rely upon himself – he will be alone on his individual journey, and he is sufficient to the task, so the place does not need to give him any aid in the form of a vision. He sees only what he needs to see in order to make up his own mind.

Just throwing ideas around now…

[The Saucepan Man]

Is there any hope of redemption by The SaucepanMan

Darn fine thread that, though I say so myself.

I understand your reasoning, Fordim, but I am not sure if the Amon Hen 'effect' can be deduced from the experiences of the characters that you refer to because I do not see its influence as affecting its surroundings. As I see it, its effect only impacts (if at all) on those who visit it at the time that they visit.

Frodo's resolve to go to Mordor alone does not come to him at the Seat. It was there all along, even when he left the company. But his visit to the Seat (as well as his encounter with Boromir) does go towards confirming what he knows deep down is the 'right' thing to do, so to that extent he is affected by its influence.

Nor does Aragorn find his resolve at the Seat. He finds nothing there, and continues to despair after he has departed from it. As I said earlier, it is not the function of the Seat to make Aragorn's choice for him. He must do that for himself (although he does have support here from Legolas and Gimli and is aided by his subsequent knowledge of what has befallen the other members of the Fellowship), so I agree with your reasoning in that regard.

As for Boromir, well he never visits the Seat, and it has nothing to do with his repentance. That comes from within him, when he finally sees the folly of his erstwhile plans.

So, I am not sure that we can draw many conclusions as to the nature of the Seat from what happens to the characters before or after they have visited it, or from those characters who do not visit it at all.

[Lhunardawen]

Wow! I can't believe we're finally discussing TTT! And here I am, late, as usual.

As Esty said, I believe one of the best things PJ did in the movie version was to add this to FotR. Doing so gave FotR an appropriate ending, and for the movie viewers, a little sense of hopelessness...only to have hope regained in the next part (I wonder how... ).

Originally Posted by Esty

The chapter title is rather ambiguous - did anyone think that it meant Boromir was going to Minas Tirith when first reading the book? We now know that it's a final and tragic (though redemptive) departure, of course.

Had I not watched the movie before reading the books, that's what I would have thought. I might have said something like: "You faithless Boromir! I knew you would leave the Fellowship!" So that's one of the perks of watching the movies first--you don't commit the mistake of cursing one of the most heroic characters of the story.

Originally Posted by davem

So, how ‘magical’ a place is Amon Hen - if even Aragorn only sees what any of us would expect to see what’s so special about the place to earn it its name? And how come Frodo sees so much - is it the power of the Ring? But that would mean that The Hill of Sight only deserved its name & reputation if the person using it had their vision magically enhanced.

That was exactly what I was wondering about as well. The Ranger saw nothing, yet Frodo saw many things, albeit with the aid of the Ring. I was thinking that perhaps what Aragorn saw is exactly what he's supposed to see...that's all there is to it. Frodo, on the other hand, saw much--mostly what the Ring probably wanted him to see. I think that the Ring knew of his increasing eagerness to get on with the task at hand, and so tried to discourage him with signs of war. Apparently, it was to no avail (at least for the moment).

Not only was Boromir's death a loss to the Company, to his father and brother, to Gondor, and to its allies...it also signified a potential succession from the rule of the Stewards to Aragorn's ascension to the throne of Gondor. Boromir died, yet Aragorn lived. Narsil was reforged and given to Aragorn as Anduril, while Boromir's sword--a symbol of his power and authority--was broken...incidentally, near the hilt.

In this chapter, minds were made up, roads were taken, and burdens were removed. Frodo has finally mustered enough courage and whatever else he needed to go on to Mordor, allowing Sam to take the journey with him. Boromir "has taken his road," as Aragorn said, and was relieved of the guilt he would have carried. As for Aragorn, he has given up the burden, so to speak, of protecting Frodo. I believe he has no guilt over his decision nor the circumstances; he had to choose between those who left on their own accord and those who have been captured. Seems to me the most troubled ones are Merry and Pippin!

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

courage ... [and]... whatever else he [Frodo] needed

That'd be hope in an Estel sense, i.e. trust (in authority of Gandalf and via that in authority of Eru)

The latter is not explicit from the LoTR itself, and one needs to draw in UT resources for that, but, ultimately, it comes down to that - Frodo trusts in (most of the time) what Gandalf told him to be the right way, keeps on trusting even with Gandalf (presumably for Frodo) dead - i.e. knowing that course of action chosen by Gandalf proved fatal for Gandalf himself, and knowing that it may well prove fatal for Frodo as well. Doing it hard way, one time too many shown by Boromir what 'easy way' may land him (and anybody else) in.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I understand your reasoning, Fordim, but I am not sure if the Amon Hen 'effect' can be deduced from the experiences of the characters that you refer to because I do not see its influence as affecting its surroundings. As I see it, its effect only impacts (if at all) on those who visit it at the time that they visit.

My apologies, but I think I was a bit unclear in the first post on this. When I drew my (brilliant ) conclusions about Amon Hen I was applying them to the whole locale and not just to the Seat of Seeing. (Amon Hen is the hill itself upon which the Seat is situated, after all.)

So, while I agree with your observations about people who sat/did not sit & when they endured their 'trials' my point is not directly about the Seat anyway.

Hills are important for Tolkien and it seems they mark far more than just a physical geography but a moral one as well. Frodo's moral journey begins in Bag End (beneath a Hill), takes him to his first trial at Amon Sul (which he fails in a way) and then culminates (in FotR) at Amon Hen (in which he succeeds). His journey is itself a path from blindess-beneath-a-hill to obscured-vision-or-mis-seeing-on-a-hill to a moment of vision and clarity upon a hill. I suppose this makes sense when we consider that his journey will end at the summit of a mountain. Although it won't end there, will it? But back beneathe a hill. . .but not even there. . .will it end upon the hill of Westernesse??

So I stand by my point: Boromir, Aragorn and Frodo all find exaltation of a sort at Amon Hen (the hill, not the Seat of Seeing).

[Encaitare]

Whatever point Tolkien is making with these attributions - the Eye to Sauron, the Voice to Gandalf & the Hand to Saruman - escapes me at the moment, but it is certainly intriguing.

The Voice and Gandalf seem the clearest to me -- Gandalf is a persuader. He urges people to take action, to take the proper course, since he himself cannot do certain things for them. He cannot challenge Sauron openly, and so he must use others to achieve the necessary ends. For example, he gives counsel to Denethor, Theoden, and all those at the Council of Elrond.

Saruman, on the other hand, (no pun intended) is different. He takes things into his own hands -- or Hand -- and sets about doing things his own way. He fancies that he might obtain the Ring, an instrument or weapon worn on the Hand.

It's interesting that Saruman is not attributed with the Voice in this sense, since his voice is his greatest source of power and influence. It's as though Gandalf is the voice of reason, and Saruman is that of lies -- he will make promises and false claims, but in the end it will all just come to better serve himself.

As for the Eye, Sauron is able to see many things, both through "tracking" the Ring, and through the use of the Nazgul and his spies. That's all I can really think of for him right now.