**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**

[Maédhros]

Great work Findegil, as of yet, I have not been able to read it in great detail but it looks very good for now.

I think that we are still missing the link between the last part of the Wanderings of Húrin and that of the beginning of chapter 14 of the Quenta.

I still think that there are lots of details that can be added to our story in general. Such as an exchange between the dwarves and Thingol, etc.

You will see that I have given in to Maedhros desire to have Melian as the Messenger to Beren and Luthien. After some pondering I came to the conclusion that in effect Melian did fail to hold the girdle in place. Why this was the case we are not told. So there is no great difference what she does afterwards. Equally if she left Doriath going to Valinor or to Ossiriand, she left her people unprotected.

Thanks.

The single point left now where we still do not agree is the fight of the Dwarves against Doriath. In version a we can add some further details but I don’t see that for version b. I repeat my self for post 58 : It all comes down to the question if we will take "Thingol is lured outside {...} his borders" or "Thingol is {...} induced to go to war beyond his borders". I do not see any forcing reason to drive us one way or the other. And even if some one could bring in such a reason, I still think that option b could be a planed revision that is unworkable for us, while option a we could nicely incorporate into existing writings.

I really think that the way that you handled the crux of the matter of the dwarves attacking Thingol is the way to go. I would chose option b myself because in there you do not use the elven traitors that I have been against their inclusion.

In the end of my working (the fight of the Feanorians against Dior) I introduce much more detailed material since that was what was agreed upon in the discussion before and I found it not necessary to search first more storyline-like sentence to expand them later. The result is a nearly not readable text, if it is forum-formated, my apologies for this. But it shows nicely were I am aiming at in the end.

I really liked those additions in a general sense, I would hope that if Aiwendil is ok with them.

[Findegil]

Posted by Maedhros:

I would chose option b myself because in there you do not use the elven traitors that I have been against their inclusion.

It seems I have polarised it to much. The elven traitors should not be the singel point to vote for option b! It is ofcourse possible to work out option a without them. I will call that option c:

Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod FD-SL-18{and in Belegost} they returned at length, FD-SL-20c{ and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen} they FD-SL-21a{passed into Doriath secretly. There they} surprised Thingol upon a hunt with but small company of arms and {Thingol was slain} < HoME11; The Tale of The Years {Somehow it must be}[somehow they] contrived [it] that Thingol {is}[was] lured outside {or induced to go to war beyond} his borders and {is}[was] there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian {departs}[departed], and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}[was] ravaged by the Dwarves.>

We should split the discussion here between the elven traitors and the way we us the famous note about the Dwarven invasion. I can go without the elven traitors, even when I still think that they are possible ingredent of the story that we have no hard evedence against. But it will need some hard discussions to drag me over to version b! In contrast to my own comment in post 58, I would now rather use the note completly if both of you are fixed in execluding the hunt. Which would bring us to version d:

Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod FD-SL-18{and in Belegost} they returned at length[.] FD-SL-20b {, and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen they passed into Doriath secretly. There they surprised Thingol upon a hunt with but small company of arms and Thingol was slain } FD-SL-21b <editorial brige The full tale of that battle was never told, but>< HoME11; The Tale of The Years {Somehow it must be}[somehow they] contrived [it] that Thingol {is}[was] lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and {is}[was] there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian {departs}[departed], and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}[was] ravaged by the Dwarves.>

Even if I provide these version I am still voting for a or if it must be c.

Posted by Maedhros:

I think that we are still missing the link between the last part of the Wanderings of Húrin and that of the beginning of chapter 14 of the Quenta.

Clearly yes. But our versions were driving close together, and there were no storyline issues in that part, so that I found we could deal with it later while adding details to the skeleton-storyline-version I created.

Posted by Maedhros:

I still think that there are lots of details that can be added to our story in general. Such as an exchange between the dwarves and Thingol, etc.

Thats for sure! But the issue was to creat a version of the story that we use as guideline while we add these details. The level of detail that I wish for is more or less shown in the last part.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

FD-SL-29 Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of Beren and Lúthien, king in the woods, most fair of all the children of the world, for his race was threefold: of the fairest and goodliest of {Men}[the Edain], and of the {Elves}[Eldar], and of the {spirits divine of Valinor}[ Maiar of the Blessed Realm][.]<Sil77 Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel. The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray, for she was born on a night of stars, whose light glittered in the spray of the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house.>{; yet it}[Yet Dior was not] shielded {him not} from the fate of the oath of the sons of Fëanor. For Dior went back to Doriath FD-SL-31 <TY and with the power of the Silmaril {restores}[restored] it>[,] and for a time a part of its ancient glory was raised anew, though Melian no longer dwelt in that place, and she departed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse on her sorrows in the gardens whence she came.
But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. FD-SL-32 <TN Yet is it to tell that bitterness entered into the hearts of the {seven} sons of Fëanor, remembering their oath. Now Maedhros, whom Morgoth maimed, was their leader; and he called to his brethren Maglor and to [Amrod, and to Celegorm, and to [Caranthir] and to Curufin the Crafty{,}[.]> For while Lúthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even {Maidros}[Celegorm] dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior's pride, the {seven}[brothers] gathered again from wandering{; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own. But he would not yield the jewel unto them; and they came upon him with all their host; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf, and the most grievous. There fell Celegorm and Curufin and dark Cranthir, but Dior was slain and his young sons Eldun and Elrun}[.] <TN [And Celegorm] {and he} said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Fëanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the southern vales, ‘and Elwing his daughter bears it whitherso she goes - but do you not forget,’ said he, ‘that we swore to have no peace with Morgoth nor any of his folk, nor with any other of Earth-dwellers that held the Silmarils of Fëanor from us. For what,’ said {Maidros}[Celegorm], ‘do we suffer exile and wandering and rule over a scant and forgotten folk, if others gather to their hoard the heirlooms that are ours?’>
<TY {Maidros}[Maedhros] restrain{s}[ed] his brethren{[.]} [and]><TN {T}[t]hus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him give that fair jewel back unto those whose right it was; but Dior gazing on the loveliness of Elwing would not do so, and he said that he could not endure that the Nauglamír, fairest of earthly craft, be so despoiled. ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the Nauglamír unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone{,><TY [he returned] {Dior returns} no answer[.]>}[.]
<TN Then went Curufin unto his brethren, <TY [and] Celegorn {inflames}[inflamed] {the brethren}[them][,]> and because of their unbreakable oath and of their [{?} thirst] for that Silmaril (nor indeed was the spell of Mîm and of the dragon wanting) they planned war upon Dior - and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of {elfin}[elven] folk upon {elfin}[elven] folk{, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalië for their sufferings}. Little good came thereby to them; for they fell unawares upon FD-SL-33{Dior}><TY [the] east marches of Doriath>, and Dior{ and Auredhir were}[was] slain, <TY {There}[and there] fell also Celegorn (by Dior's hand) {and Curufin and Cranthir.}>[,]FD-SL-34 Q30 and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again.<TN {yet}[Yet] behold, <TY {The}[the] Lady {Lindis}[Nimloth] escaped with Elwing>{Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth a Gnome, took her unwilling} in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and[ they] came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the Nauglamír, so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but <TY [the]{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegorm seized] Dior's sons (Eluréd and Elurín) and {leave}[left] them to starve in the forest.> <Sil77 Of this Maedhros[ later] indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing[.]><TY (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir[iand].>
<TN [A] {a} host of Dior's folk, coming with all speed yet late unto the fray, fell suddenly on the{ir} rear[ of the host of the sons of Fëanor], and there was a great battle, {and Maglor was slain with swords, and Mai.... died of wounds in the wild,} and {Celegorm}[Curufin] was pierced with a hundred arrows, and Caranthir beside him. Yet in the end were the sons of Fëanor masters of the field of slain, and the grey Elves { and the green} were scattered over all the lands unhappy, for they would not hearken to {Maidros}[Maedhros] {the maimed,} nor to {Curufin}[Maglor] and {Damrod}[Amrod] who had slain[ed] their lord>[.]
FD-SL-36 Q30 {Yet the sons of Fëanor gained not the Silmaril; for faithful servants fled before them and took with them Elwing the daughter of Dior, and she escaped, and they bore with them the Nauglamír, and came}[And] in time <TY hearing the rumour /that the survivors of Gondolin had reached the Havens/ {she}[Nimloth and her company] fled> to the mouth of the river Sirion by the sea.

I have only added a few such things that are in bold. We cannot use seven of course because at that point there are only 6 of the alive.

I deleted {, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalië for their sufferings} this because the sons of Fëanor were already kinslayers at that point.

In here: and {Celegorm}[Curufin] was pierced with a hundred arrows, and Caranthir beside him.
Celegorm had to be deleted because he was already killed by Dior.

All of the other changes are very minor in nature, like the additions of prepositions and past tense of certain verbs.

There is this also:
<TY and[ they] came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the Nauglamír, so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but <TY [the]{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegorm seized] Dior's sons (Eluréd and Elurín) and {leave}[left] them to starve in the forest.> <Sil77 Of this Maedhros[ later] indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing[.]><TY (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir[iand].>

I altered the order of that parragraph just because I think that it reads better this way.

We should split the discussion here between the elven traitors and the way we us the famous note about the Dwarven invasion. I can go without the elven traitors, even when I still think that they are possible ingredent of the story that we have no hard evedence against. But it will need some hard discussions to drag me over to version b! In contrast to my own comment in post 58, I would now rather use the note completly if both of you are fixed in execluding the hunt. Which would bring us to version d:

I would really hope that we could use a little part of the hunt in our version. It all depends on Aiwendil really. I'm in favor of it.

[Findegil]

FD-SL-29 Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of Beren and Lúthien, king in the woods, most fair of all the children of the world, for his race was threefold: of the fairest and goodliest of {Men}[the Edain], and of the {Elves}[Eldar], and of the {spirits divine of Valinor}[ Maiar of the Blessed Realm][.]

Were is the reason for these changes? Clearly Beren is an adan, but isn't he one of fairest and goodliest of all mankind? And for Thingol it is the same: he is of the Eldar, but that does not make him no Elf. And what are the Maiar of the Blessed Realm other than the spirits divine of Valinor? At best the changes could be stilistic ones.

We cannot use seven of course because at that point there are only 6 of the alive.

Agreed, I missed that issue.

I deleted {, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalië for their sufferings} this because the sons of Fëanor were already kinslayers at that point.

But the kinslaying at Aqualond was initiated by their father and not by themself. Nonthless you might be right. When TN was written none of the Noldor crossed Belegaer by ship.

In here: and {Celegorm}[Curufin] was pierced with a hundred arrows, and Caranthir beside him.

What a miss of mine! Thanks for correting!

The shifting of the §§ concerned with Elured and Elurin is okay for me, even when I consider it as not really needed.

I would really hope that we could use a little part of the hunt in our version. It all depends on Aiwendil really. I'm in favor of it.

So let's here Aiwendil.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

About the hunt: I'm afraid that the more I think about the "Doriath cannot be invaded by a hostile army" note, the more I'm inclined to view it as directly contradicting the story of the hunt. It has it that Thingol was "lured" outside or "induced to go to war". What need then for a hunt? Moreover, if the hunt had not been rejected, what need for Thingol to be lured or induced to battle outside the Girdle? The hunt was clearly not something Tolkien had in mind any longer. If we re-introduced it, it seems to me, it would essentially be fan-fiction.

Is there any real argument that favors the hunt, aside from mere personal taste? If so, of course, I could perhaps be lured or induced to change my mind.

Something like Findegil's FD-SL-20d could work for me, though as it stands the phrasing is a bit awkward. But I'm confident it could be fixed.

It seems that our "storyline" is rapidly turning into a full text at some points! It's of course not really a storyline point, but like Findegil I miss the purpose of:

FD-SL-29 Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of Beren and Lúthien, king in the woods, most fair of all the children of the world, for his race was threefold: of the fairest and goodliest of {Men}[the Edain], and of the {Elves}[Eldar], and of the {spirits divine of Valinor}[ Maiar of the Blessed Realm][.]

[Findegil]

As I feared my version d would bring no good for my own point of view. But alas I have let it slip out and we must all know what we are talking about.

About the hunt: I'm afraid that the more I think about the "Doriath cannot be invaded by a hostile army" note, the more I'm inclined to view it as directly contradicting the story of the hunt.

It would be good, if you could explain that feeling more in detail. I think, that here is the real point of dissens. I agree with you that the hunt can not be used as the way the girdle was circumvented. But the hunt was never used in that way. Thus it would be fanfictional indeed.
In the older versions the Dwarves had already crossed the girdle by help of treacherous Elves. The function of the hunt was to provide an opportunity for the Dwarves to surprise Thingol with only a small company.
I don't plan to change the function of the hunt, as to make it the way by which the girdle was overcome. I rather would like to use the hunt as an opportunity, for the Dwarves to lure Thingol more easily out of the girdle, since he is already near the borders. It would then in addition have old function to reduce Thingols forces involved in the conflict.
If the girdle should be any protection for Thingol he had to be inside for ever. Thus I think that the tarditional hunt in memory of the wolfhunt was held inside Doriath and the girdle. Since the effect of the girdle had changed, it could not be a wolfhunt - no wolf would be able to cross the girdle, if he was not carrying a Silmaril, which would not happen agian. Thus the hunt in memorian of Beren would be on other wild animals. It would not led Thingol outside the girdle but nearer to the border (Menegroth is nearly in the center of Doriath). Thus the hunt would be a chance for the Dwarves to provocate some rush aktion leding Thingol outside the protection of the girdle with only a small force around him.

If we don't use the hunt, it is much harder for me to see Thingol lured outside or worst going to war beyond the borders with only company small enough to be overcome by the Dwarves easy enough so that they could ransack Menegroth in the same ride.

After explaining this, I will go on to explain why I would like to have the treacherous Elves: in TN they were the way to bring the girdle down, but the girdle was in anyway no real protection. These function will be no longer possible. But if (and only if) the hunt is used by the Dwarves for provocing Thingol at this opportunity, than they did need very exact information about the hunt: where exactly and at which time was it lunched. In TN Narsec is recorded to bring exactly that information to Naugladur which he used for his planes. But Nasec is not named as leading the Dwarves through the girdle. These was done by some other treacherous elves. Thus if the hunt is uesd I would like to includ Narsecs role but nothing more.

It seems that our "storyline" is rapidly turning into a full text at some points!

Agreed, but what would be the use of reducing the text first to expaned it later on?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

In the older versions the Dwarves had already crossed the girdle by help of treacherous Elves. The function of the hunt was to provide an opportunity for the Dwarves to surprise Thingol with only a small company.
I don't plan to change the function of the hunt, as to make it the way by which the girdle was overcome. I rather would like to use the hunt as an opportunity, for the Dwarves to lure Thingol more easily out of the girdle, since he is already near the borders. It would then in addition have old function to reduce Thingols forces involved in the conflict.
If the girdle should be any protection for Thingol he had to be inside for ever. Thus I think that the tarditional hunt in memory of the wolfhunt was held inside Doriath and the girdle. Since the effect of the girdle had changed, it could not be a wolfhunt - no wolf would be able to cross the girdle, if he was not carrying a Silmaril, which would not happen agian. Thus the hunt in memorian of Beren would be on other wild animals. It would not led Thingol outside the girdle but nearer to the border (Menegroth is nearly in the center of Doriath). Thus the hunt would be a chance for the Dwarves to provocate some rush aktion leding Thingol outside the protection of the girdle with only a small force around him.

This is exactly my way of thinking too. I don't see anything wrong per se in keeping the hunt.

After explaining this, I will go on to explain why I would like to have the treacherous Elves: in TN they were the way to bring the girdle down, but the girdle was in anyway no real protection. These function will be no longer possible. But if (and only if) the hunt is used by the Dwarves for provocing Thingol at this opportunity, than they did need very exact information about the hunt: where exactly and at which time was it lunched. In TN Narsec is recorded to bring exactly that information to Naugladur which he used for his plans. But Nasec is not named as leading the Dwarves through the girdle. These was done by some other treacherous elves. Thus if the hunt is uesd I would like to include Narsecs role but nothing more.

This is really a good point about the treachery of the Elves. Unfortunately for me, I don't see how could there be treacherous elves in Menegroth and have JRRT write so very little about them.
As the characters have evolved as time passed, we know now that the Dwarves in Nogrod had a long tradition with the Elves of Menegroth. Is it not possible that those dwarves could have know about the traditions of the Hunt (where it took place and when) because of their interaction with them. I would not want to see treacherous elves if we can avoid it.

Were is the reason for these changes? Clearly Beren is an adan, but isn't he one of fairest and goodliest of all mankind? And for Thingol it is the same: he is of the Eldar, but that does not make him no Elf. And what are the Maiar of the Blessed Realm other than the spirits divine of Valinor? At best the changes could be stilistic ones.

Ok, they were really changes in style and not substance.