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Old 11-18-2004, 10:23 AM   #1
Aldarion Elf-Friend
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefoot
You pointed out that you didn't think that Sam's understanding of Frodo was because of their closesness (or at least, that is what I think you are arguing with me), so why is it that you think Sam was able to figure out Frodo's intent?
Here's the rub of our disagreement, although I offer my response with caveats (see below). My initial point was that Tolkein was presenting us with a contrast between the wisdom of the "Wise", which fails to understand the answer in this case, and the wisdom of the "Simple" as represented by Sam. Tolkien is saying to me, here, not to look down on the wisdom of this "simple" and dismiss it as that would be prideful. Aragorn responds correctly to Sam in this case by acknowledging that Sam "has the right of it."

Okay, having said all that, I re-read this section last night, and I can certainly see where the idea of 'relational wisdom" comes from - Sam even thinks to himself how much better he knows his master than any of the others. Let's just say that my initial posistion is much weaker in my own mind now than it was yesterday.
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Old 11-18-2004, 11:34 AM   #2
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OK, back to Boromir (I'm almost happy that the guy is going to be dead soon. . .oops. . .did I type that. . .? )

I think that it might be a bit of red herring trying to ferret out whether he is "addicted" or "tempted" or "corrupted" or what have you by the Ring. Not that it's a useless endeavour, far from it as the discussion is illuminating, but I rather think that perhaps Boromir's fate in this chapter, which concludes the long sweep of his characterisation right from the Council of Elron, deserves a more subtle and complex form of understanding. That is, there is no single or easy answer to what 'happens' to him with the Ring. Which is why I always like to see him as a tragic hero.

Now, he is not as 'successful' a tragic hero as the really great ones (he's no Oedipus or Hamlet, that's for sure), but a tragic hero he remains. The basic definition of a tragic hero (get ready to write this down for future reference) is someone whose greatness is his own downfall -- that which makes him a hero is what dooms him to destruction and perhaps even villainy. Oedipus, for example, is a restless solver of riddles, he finds things out. Had he not been this way he would never have gone after the truth of his birth so relentlessly, and never would have found out that he's married to Mom after killing Dad. Hamlet's the other great example. He is a thinker of no small measure: he is brilliant and moral and possesses a capacity for understanding that goes beyond anyone in his world. Because of this, he is too aware of the implications to what he is supposed to do -- he knows that to murder Claudius is to commit a sin, whereas leaving well enough alone is also a sin. He tries to find some way to do what he has been ordered to do, without creating more problems. It's an impossible situation and he knows it, and this is what makes him great and doomed.

So on to Boromir. His greatness is his heroic stature among Men. He is a hero and unproblematically so. He is great and noble and smart and strong and honourable -- it is his tragedy that he is drawn to the Ring for all of these reasons. I don't think that we need to start going into a search for the "flaws" in his character that lead to his destruction, since the Ring plays on his strengths. He is a military commander of no small measure, a leader of Men, and totally devoted to his kingdom. These are the things that the Ring offers him, and he falls.

So all this gets into the disturbing ambiguities that beset all tragic heroes. Does his fall mean that his values are wrong or 'bad'? Is his mode of heroism being undercut or devalued? I don't think so, since Aragorn, Eomer and Faramir are going to be doing a lot of leading and killing and fighting of their own soon enough. Does his fall mean that he isn't really great or heroic at all? Again, I don't think so -- if he weren't such hero, he would not have attempted to seize the Ring, as he would not have desire to save his city.

The thing about effective tragedy is that it makes us uncomfortable, I think. There are two reactions to this discomfort. The natural response is to seek easy answers with which to do away with the discomfort -- these easy answers usually take the form of some kind of distancing between ourselves and the tragic hero: he is 'flawed' in some way that we can identify and safely categorise and say we are not flawed that way (Hamlet "thinks too much" -- a ridiculous idea, as in the play it's when people don't think that they get into trouble). Boromir is "proud" or "arrogant" or somesuch -- but he is right to be proud: proud of himself and of his achievements, proud of his land. It is because of this pride that he has come on this journey and suffered along with the rest. But it's because of this heroic pride that he falls to the Ring.

Like all tragic heroes, Boromir is neither good nor bad, right nor wrong, perfect nor flawed. And he's not all of those at once. He's just human, which is to say he is what he is, and there's nothing he can do to change that.
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Old 11-18-2004, 12:19 PM   #3
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He is great and noble and smart and strong and honourable -- it is his tragedy that he is drawn to the Ring for all of these reasons. I don't think that we need to start going into a search for the "flaws" in his character that lead to his destruction, since the Ring plays on his strengths.
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if he weren't such hero, he would not have attempted to seize the Ring
Yep yep yep... you hit the nail on the head, Fordim, and then hit it again and again.
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There are two reactions to this discomfort. The natural response is to seek easy answers with which to do away with the discomfort -- these easy answers usually take the form of some kind of distancing between ourselves and the tragic hero: he is 'flawed' in some way that we can identify and safely categorise and say we are not flawed that way
Excellent observation.

I have nothing to add except- read Fordies awesome post again.

(I would've just repped you, F, but it wouldn't let me- said I had to spread the wealth a bit)
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Last edited by the phantom; 11-18-2004 at 12:21 PM. Reason: add a smilie
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Old 11-18-2004, 02:16 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordim
Boromir is "proud" or "arrogant" or somesuch -- but he is right to be proud: proud of himself and of his achievements, proud of his land. It is because of this pride that he has come on this journey and suffered along with the rest. But it's because of this heroic pride that he falls to the Ring.

Like all tragic heroes, Boromir is neither good nor bad, right nor wrong, perfect nor flawed. And he's not all of those at once. He's just human, which is to say he is what he is, and there's nothing he can do to change that.
But is he 'right' to be proud? Pride is the deadliest of the Deadly sins. We may not think of Boromir's pride in that way, but the question is did Tolkien? Did Boromir ever display humility before the end? Perhaps Tolkien would have said he didn't have any right to be proud - Faramir fought as bravely as his brother, Aragorn more so, but both displayed not pride but humility. Their role in the war, in life, was to do their duty, & they clearly felt that as it was their duty it deserved no praise. Like the saints they refused to accept any praise or honour for their actions, & thought of themselves almost as 'unprofitable servants' because they'd only done what was required of them.

Boromir is too desirous of honour, & I can't help thinking that it was the very humbling death that he died - shot down by orcs defending a couple of hobbits (who, lets remember, weren't in danger of actually being killed anyway, as Saruman had ordered his servants to capture the hobbits not kill them) that broke him & allowed him his final salvation. A wasteful, pointless death in the eyes of the world, but a death which purified & humbled Boromir. He didn't die as a proud warrior, he died as a humble soul in a state of repentance.

Yes, he was human - or rather he attained humanity in the end, by sacrificing his pride. I wouldn't say he was like us at the end, I'd say he had transcended us. But then how 'human' are we - in the best sense, I mean?
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:53 PM   #5
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I must say more wonderful observations by Professor Fordhim and Professor Davem. Here is a thread of mine, weighs in on the 7 deadly sins and 7 heavenly virtues. It quickly turned out to be a big discussion on Boromir. It looks at Boromir's last moments, what "good things" he did, and the "bad," maybe it can explain something, or just show how much more a complex character Boromir is.

7 Deadly Sins vs. 7 Heavenly Virtues

(I hope I set up this link right, I might have finally figured out how to do it).
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Old 11-18-2004, 08:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordim
I think that it might be a bit of red herring trying to ferret out whether he is "addicted" or "tempted" or "corrupted" or what have you by the Ring.
Well, I wouldn't call it a red herring. There are two "forces" at work here: Boromir's nature on the one hand and the Ring on the other. And it is in the interaction between the two that questions such as temptation, addiction and corruption arise. While Boromir's nature certainly contributes to his downfall, the Ring has no small part to play.

And can we really say that it is Boromir's "greatness" that is his downfall when, in light of the words of Frodo and Sam in this chapter (not to mention the words of the likes of Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel in previous chapters) he manifestly takes the "wrong" course? Then again, if you are saying that it is that within him which makes him great which also makes him flawed, then I would agree. For example, and to pick up on davem's point, pride may very well be an admirable quality in the service of his land, but it is inappropriate and dangerous here. This is explored in the thread to which Boromir88 has linked, where it is suggested that there are different aspects to pride, such as self-confidence (an admirable quality) and arrogance (not so admirable). While Boromir's well-placed confidence in his strength in arms no doubt serves him well in battle, his over-confidence, in thinking that he knows better than the Wise what to do with the Ring, let's him down big time here.


Quote:
That is, there is no single or easy answer to what 'happens' to him with the Ring.
That I would most certainly agree with, which is why it provides such fertile ground for discussion here.
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