water as a symbol of good - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gurthang · 11-17-2004, 02:17 PM

The statis of water as the life of all creatures is probably the main reason they would dislike it. I don't know that they did especially fear it. It was only after they started to cross the Bruinen after Arwen that they were washed away by Elrond's flood. They just didn't like it, that's all.

One thing that is kind of an interesting thought. Could the Nazgul drown? They aren't alive, I know, but they could still be defeated in a way, like in Eowyn's case. Could they have been greatly lessoned by being underwater for a time?

But then why fear fire, also? They had no flesh, so it wouldn't make sense that they would fear being burned. It just doesn't make sense.

Maybe if you take a different look at this, it might make more sense. They lived mostly in the shadow world. Water and fire may have existed and appeared differently in the shadow realm. I know that elves appear in radiant glory and that mortals appear as shadows, but what of fire and water. They might have been much more dangerous in that world than what we would think.

Lalwendë · 11-17-2004, 03:03 PM

As with most things in Middle Earth, there is another side. Water is also menacing. The Withywindle with its spirits, and the pool of water putside Moria with its 'Watcher'. The sea is also a menacing body of water; it is the sea which drowns Numenor, and the sea which takes the Elves away from Middle Earth. The great power of Galadriel is manifest in a mirror created of water; this mirror is a reference to 'scrying', a mysterious method of prophecy drawn from our own world. Water can be protective, but in Middle Earth, it is also dangerous, treacherous even.

Tevildo · 11-17-2004, 04:18 PM

Lalwende has a point. It's interesting what a fear of water the Hobbits have. Also, Frodo's parents met their death by drowning. And of course there are the two examples of Numenor and Beleriand, both victims of rising waters.

Kuruharan · 11-18-2004, 01:48 PM

Quote:

The sea is also a menacing body of water; it is the sea which drowns Numenor, and the sea which takes the Elves away from Middle Earth.

I disagree with this, at least in a symbolic sense. The sea is portrayed as being a tool of the Valar. Numenor deserved what it got. I don't find the sea being the means of transporting the Elves to Valinor to be particularly menacing.

Belariand was a slightly different circumstance as it was destroyed by the breaking of Thangorodrim, and then it sank.

Other examples of water being attributed protective qualities:

Boromir being cast adrift in the Great River.

Galadriel uses mists for protective purposes (the ride of Eorl).

Lalwendë · 11-18-2004, 02:16 PM

Quote:

I disagree with this, at least in a symbolic sense. The sea is portrayed as being a tool of the Valar. Numenor deserved what it got. I don't find the sea being the means of transporting the Elves to Valinor to be particularly menacing.

I'll just explain a little of what I mean by 'menacing' in terms of the sea in Middle Earth. I do not see it as a malevolent power; its menace comes from the fact that it is tremendously powerful and has such huge potential for wreaking destruction - not unlike our own seas. The sea is in the hands of greater powers, and, right or wrong, it is up to them what they do with this power.

As to why I find the fact that the Elves are taken across it to be menacing, I am referring to the sheer size of the ocean; it is a bridge which it is almost impossible to cross, and the Elves are being borne that way. It is a one way journey with no coming back, much as the sea would have been viewed by convicts transported across the immense oceans to Australia. There is no gong back from this trip, and what is more, there is no communication, it is absolute.

Kuruharan · 11-18-2004, 04:41 PM

I'm afraid that I still don't agree with you, particularly as it regards the Elves. They were master mariners after all. By the time they made the voyage most of them wanted to go. It was the fulfillment of their "sea calling." I also don't think it was viewed as being anything similar to being shipped to Australia. They were going to happy land.

Nilpaurion Felagund · 11-20-2004, 01:07 AM

Water is Ulmo's touch. Ulmo, after all, hated the whole fad about bodies.

Also, water is the substance where the Music of Ainur has been "recorded". If you think of it this way, the drinking of water in ME involves both a physical and a spiritual act. Although the Men and Elves were created by Eru's song, not the Music, the drinking of water may be seen as a connection between the song of Eru and the song of the Ainur. Plus it sustains their life in this realm fashioned by the Music. Another connection between the two chart-topping hits.

Quote:

Could the Nazgul drown? They aren't alive, I know, but they could still be defeated in a way, like in Eowyn's case. Could they have been greatly lessoned by being underwater for a time?

But then why fear fire, also? They had no flesh, so it wouldn't make sense that they would fear being burned. It just doesn't make sense. (Gurthang)

All life on ME is nourished by this water. Perhaps the Nazgûl fear the water as much as they love/hate blood: It reminds them of the life they once had.

As for fire: Well, the Flame Imperishable brought life to the Ainur and Arda (and all in it). Perhaps the Nazgûl are tortured by this reminder that they are now "cold" flame.

Or perhaps I'm reading too much into this. After all, your explanation of the otherwordly aspects of fire and water is quite a good idea.

11-17-2004, 02:17 PM	#1
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	The statis of water as the life of all creatures is probably the main reason they would dislike it. I don't know that they did especially fear it. It was only after they started to cross the Bruinen after Arwen that they were washed away by Elrond's flood. They just didn't like it, that's all. One thing that is kind of an interesting thought. Could the Nazgul drown? They aren't alive, I know, but they could still be defeated in a way, like in Eowyn's case. Could they have been greatly lessoned by being underwater for a time? But then why fear fire, also? They had no flesh, so it wouldn't make sense that they would fear being burned. It just doesn't make sense. Maybe if you take a different look at this, it might make more sense. They lived mostly in the shadow world. Water and fire may have existed and appeared differently in the shadow realm. I know that elves appear in radiant glory and that mortals appear as shadows, but what of fire and water. They might have been much more dangerous in that world than what we would think. __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.

11-17-2004, 03:03 PM	#2
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	As with most things in Middle Earth, there is another side. Water is also menacing. The Withywindle with its spirits, and the pool of water putside Moria with its 'Watcher'. The sea is also a menacing body of water; it is the sea which drowns Numenor, and the sea which takes the Elves away from Middle Earth. The great power of Galadriel is manifest in a mirror created of water; this mirror is a reference to 'scrying', a mysterious method of prophecy drawn from our own world. Water can be protective, but in Middle Earth, it is also dangerous, treacherous even. __________________ Gordon's alive!

11-17-2004, 04:18 PM	#3
Tevildo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Curled up on Melko's lap Posts: 425	Lalwende has a point. It's interesting what a fear of water the Hobbits have. Also, Frodo's parents met their death by drowning. And of course there are the two examples of Numenor and Beleriand, both victims of rising waters. __________________ Now Tevildo was a mighty cat--the mightiest of all--and possessed of an evil spirit,...and he was in Melko's constant following; and that cat had all cats subject to him, and he and his subjects were the chasers and getters of meat for Melko's table.

11-18-2004, 04:41 PM	#6
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	I'm afraid that I still don't agree with you, particularly as it regards the Elves. They were master mariners after all. By the time they made the voyage most of them wanted to go. It was the fulfillment of their "sea calling." I also don't think it was viewed as being anything similar to being shipped to Australia. They were going to happy land. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...