water as a symbol of good - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tevildo · 11-17-2004, 10:16 AM

And do you not know that there is a reason cats dislike water?

It goes along with our role in folk culture and faerie as proponents of darkness and evil.

It is perhaps no coincidence that Master Tolkien had a hearty and outspoken dislike of cats and, at the same time, liked to used water in his tales to symbolize goodness. The two go hand in hand, at least from my perspective.

Tevildo, Prince of Cats

Encaitare · 11-17-2004, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphy

However, this is contradicted at one point in Unfinished Tales, when it is stated that the Nazgul cross the River Isen, and later the Sarn Ford in the south of the Shire. Christopher noted this and marked it down as a slight inconsistancy on his father's part (sadly, I do not have UT with me at the moment, or I would find the exact quote).

Hmm... I forgot about that. Perhaps it was because there was Elven power at Bruinen that managed to hold them off? They might have been willing to brave the water if it was just plan water, but with Elrond's spell thrown into the mix they might have been more hesitant -- if they could sense it, that is.

Cotton candy Nazgul? I love it!

Tuor of Gondolin · 11-17-2004, 12:21 PM

"And do you not know that there is a reason cats dislike water? It goes along with our role in folk culture and faerie as proponents of darkness and evil."
--------------------------
Hmm. Perhaps goes to explaining King Tarannon's method of ridding Gondor of
QB and her cats:

Quote:

King Tarannon had her set on a ship alone with her cats and set adrift on the sea before a north wind. The ship was last seen flying past Umbar under a sickle moon, with a cat at the masthead and another as a figure-head on the prow.

, UT.

Ah, ha! Perhaps the origin of Siamese Cats, in the realm of the Black Numenoreans.

Oh, and it turns out that Lisa Simpson isn't a very successful Cat Person, when
even the pet shop won't let you buy another one.

Gurthang · 11-17-2004, 02:17 PM

The statis of water as the life of all creatures is probably the main reason they would dislike it. I don't know that they did especially fear it. It was only after they started to cross the Bruinen after Arwen that they were washed away by Elrond's flood. They just didn't like it, that's all.

One thing that is kind of an interesting thought. Could the Nazgul drown? They aren't alive, I know, but they could still be defeated in a way, like in Eowyn's case. Could they have been greatly lessoned by being underwater for a time?

But then why fear fire, also? They had no flesh, so it wouldn't make sense that they would fear being burned. It just doesn't make sense.

Maybe if you take a different look at this, it might make more sense. They lived mostly in the shadow world. Water and fire may have existed and appeared differently in the shadow realm. I know that elves appear in radiant glory and that mortals appear as shadows, but what of fire and water. They might have been much more dangerous in that world than what we would think.

Lalwendë · 11-17-2004, 03:03 PM

As with most things in Middle Earth, there is another side. Water is also menacing. The Withywindle with its spirits, and the pool of water putside Moria with its 'Watcher'. The sea is also a menacing body of water; it is the sea which drowns Numenor, and the sea which takes the Elves away from Middle Earth. The great power of Galadriel is manifest in a mirror created of water; this mirror is a reference to 'scrying', a mysterious method of prophecy drawn from our own world. Water can be protective, but in Middle Earth, it is also dangerous, treacherous even.

Tevildo · 11-17-2004, 04:18 PM

Lalwende has a point. It's interesting what a fear of water the Hobbits have. Also, Frodo's parents met their death by drowning. And of course there are the two examples of Numenor and Beleriand, both victims of rising waters.

Kuruharan · 11-18-2004, 01:48 PM

Quote:

The sea is also a menacing body of water; it is the sea which drowns Numenor, and the sea which takes the Elves away from Middle Earth.

I disagree with this, at least in a symbolic sense. The sea is portrayed as being a tool of the Valar. Numenor deserved what it got. I don't find the sea being the means of transporting the Elves to Valinor to be particularly menacing.

Belariand was a slightly different circumstance as it was destroyed by the breaking of Thangorodrim, and then it sank.

Other examples of water being attributed protective qualities:

Boromir being cast adrift in the Great River.

Galadriel uses mists for protective purposes (the ride of Eorl).

11-17-2004, 10:16 AM	#1
Tevildo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Curled up on Melko's lap Posts: 425	And do you not know that there is a reason cats dislike water? It goes along with our role in folk culture and faerie as proponents of darkness and evil. It is perhaps no coincidence that Master Tolkien had a hearty and outspoken dislike of cats and, at the same time, liked to used water in his tales to symbolize goodness. The two go hand in hand, at least from my perspective. Tevildo, Prince of Cats __________________ Now Tevildo was a mighty cat--the mightiest of all--and possessed of an evil spirit,...and he was in Melko's constant following; and that cat had all cats subject to him, and he and his subjects were the chasers and getters of meat for Melko's table.

11-17-2004, 02:17 PM	#4
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	The statis of water as the life of all creatures is probably the main reason they would dislike it. I don't know that they did especially fear it. It was only after they started to cross the Bruinen after Arwen that they were washed away by Elrond's flood. They just didn't like it, that's all. One thing that is kind of an interesting thought. Could the Nazgul drown? They aren't alive, I know, but they could still be defeated in a way, like in Eowyn's case. Could they have been greatly lessoned by being underwater for a time? But then why fear fire, also? They had no flesh, so it wouldn't make sense that they would fear being burned. It just doesn't make sense. Maybe if you take a different look at this, it might make more sense. They lived mostly in the shadow world. Water and fire may have existed and appeared differently in the shadow realm. I know that elves appear in radiant glory and that mortals appear as shadows, but what of fire and water. They might have been much more dangerous in that world than what we would think. __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.

11-17-2004, 03:03 PM	#5
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	As with most things in Middle Earth, there is another side. Water is also menacing. The Withywindle with its spirits, and the pool of water putside Moria with its 'Watcher'. The sea is also a menacing body of water; it is the sea which drowns Numenor, and the sea which takes the Elves away from Middle Earth. The great power of Galadriel is manifest in a mirror created of water; this mirror is a reference to 'scrying', a mysterious method of prophecy drawn from our own world. Water can be protective, but in Middle Earth, it is also dangerous, treacherous even. __________________ Gordon's alive!

11-17-2004, 04:18 PM	#6
Tevildo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Curled up on Melko's lap Posts: 425	Lalwende has a point. It's interesting what a fear of water the Hobbits have. Also, Frodo's parents met their death by drowning. And of course there are the two examples of Numenor and Beleriand, both victims of rising waters. __________________ Now Tevildo was a mighty cat--the mightiest of all--and possessed of an evil spirit,...and he was in Melko's constant following; and that cat had all cats subject to him, and he and his subjects were the chasers and getters of meat for Melko's table.