![]() |
![]() |
Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
|
![]() |
#1 | |
Deadnight Chanter
|
It seems explainable on the following ground:
Quote:
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
![]() ![]() |
It is strange that Tolkien would use the same verse forms for the two cultures. Clearly the Elvish culture was developed first - probably because they were originally his ideal race, & alliterative verse was an especial love of his. Of course, when the Rohirric culture appeared he wanted to create an idealised 'anglo-saxon' people for M-e, so they would have to use alliterative verse, as the real anglo-saxons used that verse form.
I suppose what we have is, first, a race of beings based on the norse Alfar, so their 'culture' would reflect what was known of norse/a-s society (in an idealised form). Were they intended as the inspiration for a-s society, for its culture as well as its legends? I'm fumbling here, but it seems almost as if we could see the Elves as the 'archetypal' anglo-saxons, the spiritual template for the a-s culture - the Valar were the archetypes from which the norse gods of legends took their forms & nature,Elvish verse forms the archetypes from which later Rohirric alliterative verse forms evolved. Then Rohan appears as that ideal made flesh. The Numenorian culture moves towards the classical, away from that ideal (for all its 'height'). We can see in the situation in Rohan, as a representation of a-s england during the dark ages. The Elves in the Golden Wood are symbolic of the pagan world which is being left behind, Gondor symbolises the world of Christianity coming in, but the links with the past remain, in legends, tales, & in the poetry of the Elves which has passed to the Rohirrim from the Elves. Geographically, Gondor is in the place of Rome, Rohan of a-s England. I suppose we can think of the Rohirrim as having a link with the Sindar, the Gondorians, through Numenor, with the High Elves of the West. Minlamad thent/estent is sindarin, (I think) & if the name of the verse form is sindarin, does that mean the verse form itself was Sindarin originally? I suppose we could be dealing with a passing on of a sindarin verse form from the Elves that never passed into the West to men who never went into the West (ie to Numenor). I don't know how much thought Tolken put into what happened in M-e during the Second Age, in terms of the relations between the Sindar, Men & Dwarves, but its possible that there was a great deal of cultural interaction - particularly between Men who remained in Middle earth & the Sindar. How 'advanced' a culture was there? Too much speculation here, & probably a lot of it is wrong - sorry, can't face wading through all the books at the moment, but if I'm anywhere close to being right it may be that the Sindar passed on large parts of their culture to Men, & that the peoples who eventuallly settled in Rohan were more culturally Elvish than we might think. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
![]() ![]() |
HerenIstarion:
Somehow I had it in my mind that the Eotheod were the kin of the Marachians who never entered Beleriand, but Faramir's quote certainly seems to make them descendants of the people of Hador who came back east after refusing the summons to Numenor. But this is the only time such a thing is suggested, as far as I can recall. I will search HoMe for more on the origin of the Eotheod. In any case, it still seems a bit surprising that the Rohirrim would preserve something so similar to "minlamad thent/estent" through the intervening six thousand years. Davem: Interesting thoughts. You may be right that: Quote:
There does seem to be a movement away from the Anglo-Saxon and toward the Classical in Numenor - but I think there was similar move toward the Classical for the Eldar in Valinor, and even to some extent for the Sindar. Possibly, things are also confused by a trend away from the primitive through Tolkien's life. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() Quote:
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
![]() ![]() |
Davem wrote:
Quote:
Another interesting aspect of the question is the matter of spoken vs. sung verse. In their essay, Wynne and Hostetter note that Tolkien wrote of the Sindarin word narn that it referred to a tale in verse meant to be spoken rather than sung; from this they conclude that "minlamad thent/estent" was spoken. Then they embark upon a thorough analysis of whether Tolkien's views on whether real Anglo-Saxon alliterative verse had been spoken or sung; they offer no firm conclusion but appear to suggest that he probably thought it was spoken. But I wish they had considered the verses of the Rohirrim in LotR, for the two major Rohirric poems are both said to be "songs". I also think they may have jumped too quickly to the conclusion that minlamad thent/estent was not sung. It seems possible to me that, while a narn was spoken, there may have been other verses in minlamad thent/estent that were indeed sung. I make these points not with the intention of criticizing the excellent essay, but primarily because I wonder whether the similarity between the Elvish and Rohirric verse forms suggests any similarity between Elvish and Rohirric music. Also I wonder whether the use of "song" in referring to the verse of the Rohirrim casts further doubt on Tolkien's beliefs about Anglo-Saxon verse being spoken. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
![]() ![]() |
Well, its certainly easier to remember a song than a poem, so, perhaps humans would set poems to music even if their orignal form was spoken. Possibly the verse form was learnt from the Sindar, & the music added by men.
Having said that, & knowing how touchy Elves could be regarding 'tradition', I see no reason that the Elves would not choose to set some of their verses to music. For instance, while I can't see the Narn being sung, I could see 'Winter comes to Nargothrond' being, & that's in the alliterative metre. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |