LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 08 - Farewell to Lórien

[drigel]

All this Boromir talk ....
Davem, I agree on your analysis you just posted. Boromir joining the fellowship for the wrong reasons...,, etc IMO strays a little from the authors intent (at least in the final version of the character). Comparing Boromir to Aragorn is like comparing Celeborn to Galadriel. Apples and oranges. On a symbolic level, the fellowship was a representation of the free peoples of ME. I love the Efnissien analogy.

To me, Aragorn symbolized the ideal of mankind. Boromir symbolized the reality of men, especially at this time in ME. This was a very dirty, complex and hazardous time for men, esp in the south. They werent fighting Sauron for ideals, they were fighting him for survival. I dont think there was much concern for the other free peoples of ME, although Im sure that they would credit themselves as being the bulwark for their surivival for most of the 3rd age if the opportunity presented itself. With Boromir comes the complexities and politics of leadership of men that comes with dealing with these circumstances as well. With him we see the reality of humans as we are today, only juxtapositioned to the reality of his time, where more ancient principles or ideals still had an influence, as personified by elven leadership and even Aragorn himself.

I also see Boromirs interaction and reaction with Galadriel as the real future of elf human relations if you will. Aragorn (and some of his lineage no doubt) held the hope for a higher ideal for mankind (based on a real physical link to elven culture), but in the big scheme of things, this was only a blip on the map. Boromir represented the reality of how men would relate to elves - wary - esp towards the otherworldly or witchcrafty elements of elves. Ignorant yes, but if your stuck in the "here and now" and do not posess the gifts that elves had, only the truly learned (or gifted) would not have this attitude.

At the end of this chapter, I see Boromir affected in a positive way by the Lorien experience, if only by the confrontation of the feelings he had towards the ring and the mission. These are the same feelings he pronounced at the Council. Nothing has changed, exept perhaps his reflections now are on a deeper level. Elrond and Galadriel knew - his role in the mission was sort of a representation of the humans mission in ME - with all the weaknesses and flaws that men had, they were the ones who were going to be the dominant power for good that would be the only hope to counter Sauron. There simply werent enough elves (or Dunedain for that matter) to make a difference anymore. Regular men - just like us - who have the capability for both good and evil. If they could not fundamentally trust Boromir, then there really is no hope. Galadriel did not wake a sleeping monster in him, his monster resides in every human.

[The Saucepan Man]

Tsk. Look at us all discussing Boromir when there is so much more in this Chapter. Then again, to my mind, he is one of the most complex and fascinating characters in the book.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Ahh, then wouldn't joining the Fellowship be morally wrong?

No, because at that stage he had no inclination to seize the Ring by force, and because he vowed to protect the Ringbearer as long as he stayed with the Company (and that's all he agreed to do). It was only once the Ring started to take a hold over him to the extent that he could contemplate seizing it by force that it might be described as morally wrong for him to remain with the Fellowship.

Originally Posted by davem

My own sense is that Boromir’s growing desperation is due less to a desire for the Ring - which is merely the catalyst - & more to an awakening into maturity. He’s fighting against all the values & beliefs he’s been brought up with - power, control, the superiority of Gondor - I think this is what the Ring comes to symbolise for him. Its this inner conflict which explodes in his confrontation with Frodo. Basically, he’s ‘torn in two’, fighting on two fronts.

While I take your point concerning Boromir's transformation, I do not see this as occuring during the exchange with Frodo in Lothlorien. For me, it simply doesn't fit with the dialogue. Boromir is 'torn in two', yes. But his inner conflict is between his duty to return to Minas Tirith and the desire for the Ring which has awoken within him. Frodo guesses Boromir's unspoken words - that it would be folly to throw the Ring into the Fire. In Rivendell, Boromir took this position on a rational basis believing that it could be put to better use to defend Gondor and challenge Sauron. But now it is based on an "irrational" desire for the Ring.

To my mind, Boromir's transformation from pride to humility does not occur until after he attempts to seize the Ring from Frodo. As I said, I like to think that he does truly repent at that point and find redemption, and the quote supplied by HI would support this view.

Originally Posted by davem

I’m not sure I agree that his desire for the Ring would have re-asserted itself if he’d survived. A ‘madness’ took him, but it passed, & as Aragorn told him, in the end he had conquered.

I never said that it would have. My point is that the desire remained latent within him from this point (Lothlorien) on until the point at which Frodo escapes from his assault. At that stage he was 'released', although I will reserve judgment on whether he truly conquered his desire or whether the Ring simply had no further use for him (Frodo having escaped) until we reach the relevant Chapter.

Originally Posted by drigel

Galadriel did not wake a sleeping monster in him, his monster resides in every human.

I agree that the 'monster', namely the potential for corruption, resides within every human. Indeed, I think that every member of the Fellowship was vulnerable to it (although I have always held that the Hobbits were best equipped to resist it). And, in a sense, Galadriel did wake the 'sleeping monster' within him, since she confronted him with his heart's desire. Why him and not the others? Well, I would certainly say that he was the most vulnerable to the Ring's wiles. And I would suggest that this was because he was, mentally, the weakest, and because he already thought that it would be folly to destroy it and saw an alternative solution in wielding it against Sauron. Boromir's desire was not caused by Galadriel - she simply confronted him with what was already there. And it was already there because the Ring had identified him as a point of vulnerability and was seeking to use him to find its way back to its Master.

As I have said previously, I believe that Boromir would have made a play for the Ring eventually, even without Galadriel revealing this desire to him - it just would have taken longer (and could, potentially, have been more dangerous).

[the phantom]

In Rivendell, Boromir took this position on a rational basis believing that it could be put to better use to defend Gondor and challenge Sauron. But now it is based on an "irrational" desire for the Ring.

I'm not sure I agree that his desire was "irrational".

This is irrational-> expecting a hobbit to safely enter a heavily guarded land, travel for miles and miles without getting caught, and destroy a ring he could not willingly throw into his little fire at home.

To Boromir this idea seems much more irrational than attempting to use the Ring.

Boromir was a strong-willed man, a leader, and a righteous warrior. Someone so strong is likely to disbelieve the notion that they could be mastered or ensnared by a greater will, in this case the Ring, which leads to my next point...

Well, I would certainly say that he was the most vulnerable to the Ring's wiles. And I would suggest that this was because he was, mentally, the weakest, and because he already thought that it would be folly to destroy it and saw an alternative solution in wielding it against Sauron.

I agree with the first part and the last part, but I do not agree that he was "mentally, the weakest".

Boromir was strong, and a leader, and was used to ruling and having his judgments heard and obeyed. He thought that he could use the Ring safely because he was strong, and he certainly had more faith in his own strength than in the apparent "folly" of the quest.

For instance, if my little 6-year-old cousin and I found the Ring and were told "If you use the Ring it will take you over", my cousin wouldn't use it, but I might.

Why? Because I'm weaker mentally? No. Because I'm strong- and I would believe that, despite the warning, my strength would be enough to do it. My cousin, on the other hand, is not used to doing things the way he pleases but used to following his elders and so would trust and obey the judgment of his elders.

Do you understand what I mean?

[Boromir88]

Phantom, you bring up some good points.

I'm not sure I agree that his desire was "irrational".

This is irrational-> expecting a hobbit to safely enter a heavily guarded land, travel for miles and miles without getting caught, and destroy a ring he could not willingly throw into his little fire at home.

Boromir's plan is irrational, but you are right that it's definately rational compared to the other plan, which is practically like suicide.

I agree with the first part and the last part, but I do not agree that he was "mentally, the weakest".

Possibly, he may not be the "weakest mentally." As we see Aragorn take on the role of Gandalf, he too becomes "mentally weak." When the proper chapters come, I will point out the quotes. But, these last closing chapters, he begins to doubt himself, and get down on himself for the decisions he made. Basically he blames himself for the whole problem that occurred (capturing of Merry and Pippin, death of Boromir, running off of Frodo), he goes through this tough period where he doubts himself.

Why? Because I'm weaker mentally? No. Because I'm strong- and I would believe that, despite the warning, my strength would be enough to do it. My cousin, on the other hand, is not used to doing things the way he pleases but used to following his elders and so would trust and obey the judgment of his elders.

Do you understand what I mean?

That makes sense, I think we can see that in Boromir's word's at the council of Elrond.

"I do not understand all this," he (Boromir) said. "Saruman is a traitor, but did he not have a glimpse of wisdom? Why do you speak ever of hiding and destroying? Why should we not think that the Great Ring has come into our hands to serve us in the very hour of our need? Wielding it the Free Lords of the Free may surely defeat the Enemy. That is what he most fears, I deem.
"The men of Gondor are valiant, and they will never submit, but they may be beaten down. Valour needs first strength, and then a weapon. Let the Ring be your weapon, if it has such power as you say. Take it forth and go forth to victory!"

You are right, I think Boromir doesn't believe it would be able to corrupt such a man as he, or one of these "free lords." He speaks of. A situation we can connect to this would be Denethor and the Palantir. Denethor didn't "view" the palantir because he was "mentally weak." He viewed it because he thought he had the strength to combat Sauron, now obviously he doesn't have the power of Sauron, so in time his "mind broke" because he lost the "battle" with Sauron, but it wasn't because he was mentally weak, nice point. I would go in further, but I'm afraid Esty will repremmand me, so maybe I can make it a thread of my own.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I'm not sure I agree that his desire was "irrational".

This is irrational-> expecting a hobbit to safely enter a heavily guarded land, travel for miles and miles without getting caught, and destroy a ring he could not willingly throw into his little fire at home.

To Boromir this idea seems much more irrational than attempting to use the Ring.

This is the basis upon which Boromir founds his belief that it is better to use the Ring against Sauron rather than walk into Sauron's back yard in an attempt to destroy it. I agree that this is a rational (albeit, as it turns out, misguided) belief. What I am labelling "irrational" is his desire to seize it at all costs (ie by means of an attack on the person whom he has sworn to defend). It is irrational because it is provoked not by rational thought, but by the corrupting influence of the Ring.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Boromir was strong, and a leader, and was used to ruling and having his judgments heard and obeyed. He thought that he could use the Ring safely because he was strong, and he certainly had more faith in his own strength than in the apparent "folly" of the quest.

I think that you misunderstand my use of the concept of mental weakness. I am not using it in the sense of "self-confident", which Boromir undoubtedly was. Rather, I am talking in terms of strength of will to resist the Ring's influence. It is in this respect that I would say that Boromir was, mentally, the weakest of the Company.

[Rimbaud]

And to augment SpM's point on that, it is not a particular criticism of Boromir that it is so. Of the Company, the Hobbits have an oft-discussed 'natural resistance', that although finite, was fairly evident. Aragorn is a special case, and 'less and more' of a man than Boromir, due to his lineage etc. Legolas and Gimli have a less natural desire for power than Boromir, so although perhaps the Dwarf would be subsumed by greed, it would be a different malaise to that which would have gripped the Gondorian. The Elves are written as possessing a greater 'moral fibre' in any case. In a way, I think the most dissent could come from the matter of Gandalf, who as a Maia one presumes would have had a strong resistance, that although it would eventually cave would hold out the longest... but think of his reaction in Bag End that once...

~Rim

[drigel]

I think the most dissent could come from the matter of Gandalf, who as a Maia one presumes would have had a strong resistance, that although it would eventually cave would hold out the longest... but think of his reaction in Bag End that once...

Rimbaud -
Or Sarumans for that matter - was he not the highest in his order? Was he not a Maia? I am not a Boromir defender by any means, I just suppose I have a different appreciation for the character. My point was that he did not succumb because of a personality flaw specific to him. He was def the most human out of the group - and with all the inherent strengths and weaknesses. The key in my mind was the leadership aspect. Consider:

Both Saruman and Boromir were leaders. They both were on "the front line" if you will, dispatching orders, gathering and allocating resources and intelligence, making DECISIONS that affected others. Aragorn (during this time) was as well, but to a much smaller degree, mainly in the background (or in an underground resistance type of organization). His leadership was as yet unproven. So, IMO, his personal "stakes" were not as high as Boromirs. Plus, the blood flowing through Aragorns veins was much different than Boromirs, which I think implies that his strength of character had possibly a "more than human" advantage. Boromir was a captain, an heir to a Steward that - lets face it - was not looking like the best job in the world. I am sure he appreciated the effect it was having on his father. The ring was not the linchpin to the defeat of Sauron - it was the bloody tool that was used to bring so much death and misery to HIS people.