LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 07 - The Mirror of Galadriel

[Aiwendil]

Child of the Seventh Age wrote:

We often speak of Galadriel as the prime example of a powerful female character in LotR. Yet sometimes I wonder about this. To me, at times, she seems almost genderless, if such a thing is possible. (Perhaps this ties in with the Virgin Mary, an issue that others can better address?)

And Bethberry:

We get into many kinds of problems here. Galadriel had a daughter and grandchildren. She has a husband, but as Estelyn and Aiwendil suggest, his depiction is mixed

Bethberry has also pointed out the problems with bringing Silmarillion material into a discussion of LotR. But it should be noted that, if we do consider those writings, their evolution has considerable bearing on this issue. Interestingly, in the late text where she refuses the pardon of the Valar, her mother-name is "Nerwen" - "man-maiden". Here she is (obviously) represented as being initially rather proud, and only at the end of the Third Age has she gained in wisdom sufficiently to let go of her pride and return into the West. In this and the earlier version where the ban upon her is not lifted, she certainly has the fierce independent spirit of many of the Noldor, and she is "stained" in that she participated in the rebellion of Feanor (though not in the kin-slaying at Alqualonde, according to the later text).

But it seems likely that the motivation behind the latest story (and late it is, dating from the last month or so of his life) - the one where she and Celeborn leave Valinor together, independently of Feanor - may have been specifically to make her more "pure". In this version, Galadriel's dislike for and opposition to Feanor (which is mentioned in one of the earlier texts) is very much emphasized. She is later pardoned by the Valar and rejects the invitation to return to Valinor, but it is not said that this is done out of pride.

The implication may be that Galadriel was not thought to bear much of a relation to Mary at the time when LotR was written, but that later Tolkien considered any suggestion of moral failure on her part a problem. However, it ought to be noted that all three texts referred to above come from the late sixties or early seventies, so any inference concerning the time of the writing of LotR is suspect.

While I'm on the subject of these texts, I ought to amend what I said in my previous post. I neglected to mention the earliest story concerning Celeborn (preceding the version in which he is a Sinda and a relation of Thingol) - that he was a Silvan Elf who dwelt in Lorien from the outset. This may well have been the intention when the chapter was written, though the Sinda story had replaced it by the time the appendices were written in the early 1950s.

[Encaitare]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Interestingly, in the late text where she refuses the pardon of the Valar, her mother-name is "Nerwen" - "man-maiden".

I'm so glad someone pointed that out; as I was reading from Child's post regarding Galadriel's "genderlessness" I was a tad surprised to see it wasn't mentioned sooner.

In this respect, she can be considered a maiden with man-like qualities, referring to her great strength and willpower. The "man" and the "maiden" in her could perhaps cancel one another out and leave her genderless, but she has always seemed feminine to me. We see aspects of the Crone in her; although she shows little sign of age she carries the wisdom of many years.

Originally Posted by davem

Mother of Divine Grace; Mother most pure;Mother most chaste; Mother most pure; Mother of good counsel; Mirror of justice; Seat of wisdom; Spiritual vessel; Mystical Rose; Gate of Heaven; Morning Star; Health of the sick; Comforter of the Afflicted.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

Those of you who know the old Hebrew Bible might know the term satan, not as a diabolical agent who opposes God but as an angel who, not necessarily malevolent, opposes human desires for the purpose of warning them against a bad path. This would explain why Galadriel claims she will not give counsel, as she is not a counsellor.

I am not Christian and am hardly a theologian, but I found davem's mention of Mary being called "Morning Star" very interesting. I do believe that "Lucifer" also means "morning star," and Lucifer fell and became known as Satan. Bethberry makes reference to satan as an angel who seems to be an opposing force but is really acting for the better good. It all seems to come full circle back to Galadriel.

Just some food for thought; if anyone with more knowledge than me on matters of Christian theology cares to expand upon this, please do.

[The Saucepan Man]

... provoked by the Chapter and the previous discussion.

But first, I must start with an apology - to Aragorn. I rather agreed with the notion that Aragorn displayed foolhardiness in his charge against the Balrog, assuming that (being versed in Elven lore) he would know its nature. That assumption, however, appears to have been incorrect:

"An evil of the Ancient World it seemed, such as I have never seen before." said Aragorn. "It was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible."

It seems that, though he may have heard legends of Balrogs, he did not recognise this one as such.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

She has a husband, but as Estelyn and Aiwendil suggest, his depiction is mixed--Galadriel even 'corrects' him at one point, does she not?

Poor old Celeborn! She actually corrects him twice. Bêthberry referred to Galadriel admonishing his rashness in suggesting that Gandalf fell into folly. But there is also this only moments earlier:

When all the guests were seated before his chair, the Lord looked at them again. "Here there are eight," he said. "Nine were to set out: so said the messages. But maybe there has been some change of counsel that we have not heard. Elrond is far away, and darkness gathers between us, and all this year the shadows have grown longer."

"Nay, there was no change of counsel," said the Lady, speaking for the first time. Her voice was clear and musical but deeper than woman's wont. "Gandalf the Grey set out with the Company, but he did not pass the borders of this land ..."

I must say that I find the character of Celeborn rather curious. He is referred to by Galadriel as being "accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth" and yet with her first words she corrects him and goes on to jump down his throat for speaking rashly, something that he acknowledges and subsequently apologises for. And although he is the first to greet the Fellowship, Galadriel very quickly "takes command" as the central figure in Lothlorien and, of course, in this Chapter. She also describes him as a "giver of gifts beyond the power of kings", yet is she who, in the next Chapter, bestows gifts on the Fellowship (including one very much beyond the power of kings: the Phial).

I can't really put my finger on it, but Celeborn somehow comes across in this Chapter as rather "impotent", particularly in comparison with his Lady. And this seems to me to be rather a strange depiction for the Lord of such a great realm and the husband of such a powerful Lady (not to mention the wisest Elf of Middle-earth). Perhaps this is somehow related to Child's impression of Galadriel being almost genderless. Is Celeborn too genderless in the same sense? Perhaps their status and the length of their time together has somehow obviated the need for overt gender roles and rendered harmless the kind of petty admonishments that might cause ructions in a marriage of mortals. I do recall reading on a thread here that Tolkien described Elvish marriages as moving to a state, once children had been borne, whereby the partners have little interest in sexual matters. I may be misremembering here, so feel free to correct me, but that would certainly lessen the importance of one aspect of gender roles in a marriage as long lasting as that of Galadriel and Celeborn.

And, while on this topic, it is worth noting the description of Galadriel's voice in the quote given above. It has both masculine (powerful?) and feminine (intuitive?) aspects, being "deeper than woman's wont" and yet "clear and musical". This would support Child's theory of her as a genderless (gender neutral?) character. Also, the "music" in her voice might be identified with her magic, a connection which has been noted in previous discussions.

As for Galadriel's magic and its comparison with that of Sauron, it is I think worth quoting from Letter #155 in The Letters of JRR Tolkien (a draft letter to Naomi Mitchison). Apologies for the length, but it all seems relevant:

I am afraid I have been far too casual about 'magic' and especially the use of the word; though Galadriel and other show by the criticism of the 'mortal' use of the word, that the thought about it is not altogether casual. But it is a v. large question, and difficult; and a story which, as you so rightly say, is largely about motives (choice, temptations etc.) and the intentions for using whatever is found in the world, could hardly be burdened with a psuedo-philosophic disquisition! I do not intend to involve myself in any debate whether 'magic' in any sense is real or really possible in the world. But I suppose that, for the purposes of the tale, some would say that there is latent distinction such as once was called the distinction between magia and goeteia. Galadriel speaks of the 'deceits of the Enemy.' Well enough, but magia could be, was, held good (per se), and goeteia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different motives. The supremely bad motive is (for this tale, since it is specially about it) domination of other 'free' wills. The Enemy's operations are by no means all goetic deceits, but 'magic' that produces real effects in the physical world. But his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his goeteia to terrify and subjugate. Their magia the Elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific beneficent purposes. Their goetic effects are entirely artistic and not intended to deceive: they never deceive Elves (but may deceive or bewilder unaware Men) since the difference is to them as clear as the difference to us between fiction, painting, and sculpture, and 'life.'

Both sides live mainly by 'ordinary' means. The Enemy, or those who have become like him, go in for 'machinery' - with destructive and evil effects - because 'magicians,' who have become chiefly concerned to use magia for their own power, would do so (do do so). The basic motive for magia - quite apart from any philosophic consideration of how it would work - is immediacy: speed, reduction of labour, and reduction also to a minimum (or vanishing point) of the gap between the idea or desire and the result or effect. But the magia may not be easy to come by, and at any rate if you have command of abundant slave-labour or machinery (often only the same thing concealed), it may be as quick or quick enough to push mountains over, wreck forests, or build pyramids by such means. Of course another factor then comes in, a moral or pathological: the tyrant lose sight of objects, become cruel, and like smashing, hurting, and defiling as such. It would no doubt be possible to defend poor Lotho's introduction of more efficient mills; but not of Sharkey and Sandyman's use of them.

So Tolkien is here saying that both sides use magia, or "physical" magic, and goeteia, or "illusionary" magic. The Girdle of Melian, and perhaps the magic used by Galadriel to protect Lothlorien, might be described as "illusionary", in that it could “deceive or bewilder” mortals. Galadriel's Mirror might be similarly described. It certainly had the potential to deceive or bewilder Sam and Frodo, had Galadriel not been present to guide them. The difference, therefore, is not in the nature of the magic, but in the purpose to which it is put. Sauron and his minions use their magic to pursue dominion, whereas Galadriel's magic, like that of Gandalf, is used for beneficial effect, to guide and inform rather than to coerce, and also to offer hope and invigorate spirit (in the case of the Phial, for example, and also Lembas and Miruvor). Save in the destruction of Dol Guldur, I cannot think of one occasion where Galadriel's magic is used "actively" to command or destroy (and Gandalf only uses his magic in this way in extreme circumstances).

It is interesting too that Galadriel herself does not have full control over the Mirror:

Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal," she answered, "and to some I can show what they desire to see. But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold."

So, in the case of the Mirror, Galadriel is unable to command it to show that which might be most beneficial, let alone use it to command others. Although her breath "activates" it, her primary power here is to guide Sam and Frodo concerning the visions that it shows to them. And that, it seems to me, is more a matter of wisdom, empathy and intuition than magic.

Finally, I think that we come more closely to understand the peril of Lothlorien in this Chapter. As Fordim noted in the discussion of the pervious Chapter, there is danger in the potential for Galadriel to succumb to the Ring. But the greatest peril for each member of the Fellowship individually lies in Galadriel's testing of them. As davem says:

She seeks to know the hearts of the Company, principally for their own good: they need to know themselves, to confront their own motives & desires.

Yet, there is peril for any member of the Fellowship who does not remain true - who cannot overcome their motives and desires, having confronted them. As we know, there is one member of the Fellowship who is unable to do so, and he practically gives himself away:

Well, have a care!" said Boromir. "I do not feel too sure of this Elvish Lady and her purposes"

Having (correctly) recognised that she was testing the Fellowship, tempting them by "offering what she pretended to have the power to give", he expresses suspicion as to her purposes. Typical Boromir! He has been tested and found wanting, but refuses to recognise this, believing (or rather deceiving himself) that it is Galadriel's motives which are suspect, not his.

And as if to emphasise the point, Aragorn repeats the line, almost word for word, from the previous Chapter:

"Speak no evil of the Lady Galadriel!" said Aragorn sternly. "You know not what you say. There is in her and in this land no evil, unless a man bring it hither himself. Then let him beware!"

Once again, the comment is directed at Boromir. And once again, I wonder how much Aragorn suspects concerning the “evil“ in Boromir‘s heart and the course of action which it is likely to lead him to pursue. In any event, I shall certainly be keeping a close eye on Aragorn's interaction with him more closely from now on.

[mark12_30]

Okay, I'm detecting two radically different responses to Galadriel.

One: Deep-voiced and powerful, she's macho and Celeborn is a joke.

Two: Deep-voiced and powerful, she's "beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful... (then)... a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad." Or as Sam later says: "Beautiful she is, sir! Lovely! "

Why the dichotomy?

And while I'm at it: Celeborn receives several rebukes from Galadriel. If Celeborn was always one step ahead of Galadriel, someone would criticize Tolkien for his weak female characters (again). To me, Celeborn's ability to accept and handle contradiction smoothly is a sign of wisdom and strength. If he was cocky or defensive or he ignored her, I'd be much less impressed by him.

We've been discussing Galadriel as a prophet(ess). Supposing for a moment that she is indeed prophetic, why would her husband's acceptance of that power in her (and subsequent submittal to her rebuke) be counted a weakness? A king who cannot receive council isn't wise and deep, he's narrow and simple and therefore weak.

[Aiwendil]

Mark12_30:

Celeborn receives several rebukes from Galadriel. If Celeborn was always one step ahead of Galadriel, someone would criticize Tolkien for his weak female characters (again). To me, Celeborn's ability to accept and handle contradiction smoothly is a sign of wisdom and strength. If he was cocky or defensive or he ignored her, I'd be much less impressed by him.

Agreed. I admit that Celeborn comes across as a somewhat weak character, at least on the surface. But I have a higher opinion of someone who's willing to admit he's wrong than someone who at all costs avoids coming across as weak. I think Celeborn is perhaps analogous to Goldberry - not the dominant personality in Lorien, but an important one. There is also something like an analogy in Doriath - while Thingol certainly takes a more dominant role than Celeborn, he is not at all afraid to take advice from Melian. And when he refuses to listen to her, the results are generally disastrous.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

A king who cannot receive council isn't wise and deep, he's narrow and simple and therefore weak.

Yes, Aiwendil, upon reading that sentence I too immediately thought of Thingol - we criticize him for not reacting as Celeborn did, yet judge the latter as weak for doing just that! I too see Celeborn's relaxed attitude as a sign of true inner strength and greatness - it takes a man with a healthy sense of his own worth to be able to accept a woman with great gifts as his partner! The ones who react loudly and negatively are the ones who feel their weakness the most.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

One: Deep-voiced and powerful, she's macho and Celeborn is a joke.

I wouldn't go that far, although I think that it is one aspect of her personality.

As for Celeborn, I don't question his wisdom in accepting Galadriel's counsel and being comfortable with her power. I just wonder whether there might be a better way of portraying this without having him criticised and upstaged by his Lady in front of guests. It just rankles with me. Perhaps I am just reacting as I would if I was in his position, but then I'm no mighty Elf Lord.

[Rimbaud]

Celeborn = politician, and an adept one.

This post was brought to you by the Brevity Can be Telling Society.

[drigel]

Concerning Celeborn, I would agree with the Doriath analogy. In many repsects, Lorien is a micro-Doriath. Thingol I am sure accepted the fact early on that without the Girdle, his kingdom would have been mostly overrun. I always viewed Celeborn's involvement in Lorien/ME affairs as tactical, having (in what would be I suppose the accepted version of cannon..?..?) a Teleri or Sindarin point of view, whereas Galadriel would have a more strategic take on events. Reading these chapters, I can see where one can interpret the attitude of Celeborn towards the fellowship as that he is almost (initially) ignorant of its mission. Clearly in Galadriel's testing, she recognizes the critical nature that the motives of 8 individuals could play in the success or failure of it.

I always appreciate the submission of Letters in these threads. I am confused - Is the magic generated by Galadriel in "activating" the mirror producing the goetic effect of warping time/space/causality that is perpetrated on the viewer?? Can someone define goeteia?

I always assumed the "Lorien effect" (no blemish, unstained etc) was a direct result of Galadriels presence. Do we think that the pre Lorien of Amroth had a similar condition? Also, were there mallorns there pre Galadriel? I thought she was the one who introduced them there.