LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 05 - The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

But the real Istarion beat me to the Wielding thread! Fiddlesticks! Foiled again.

First, just one comment.

I find it odd (and slightly amusing) that Dwarves obsessed over defence from an outside attack, the Bridge of Khazad-dûm being evidence of this mentality. They did not think anyone would attack from the inside, as the Balrog had done, suddenly appearing in their mithril mines, then kicking their butts to Erebor and beyond.

It seems that this reflects the weakness of the Dwarves as a race. They could endure much hardship brought about by external circumstances (indeed, Aulë designed them to thrive in the world of Morgoth’s day), but they fell from their own follies, especially lust, be it for the Silmaril, or mithril.

Having had my say, I’ll now pull the aforementioned Heren.

Here (Last Hope for Moria RPG) is the Barrowdown’s vision of what might have happened during Balin’s quest for Moria. (Shameless plug: I was there!)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

For moving forward slightly in the CbC-project, let us see what we have in this chapter.

Although not very long (I managed to read it now during a journey to school and from school by a bus, and it did not ruin the effect of the chapter, quite the opposite, and it made my day a lot better), this chapter is filled with events and mainly, with events of deep impact. But let us start from the beginning.

I remember I always liked the part when Gandalf reads the Book of Mazarbul. I used to know (and maybe I could even now, if I tried) to quote it from memory (in Czech, though, as that was how I read it the most times). And I even tried to make the Book myself, with all these scratches and other things where they should be, just guided by the text. Well of course, I was about ten years old by that time, I made it from an old notebook, but it was a pice of craft by itself, definitely Isn't it interesting, however, and don't you think the way Gandalf reads it (trying to decipher the individual words and such) makes the reading more appealing? And it is also so sad - I at least remember it felt so sad to me when I read it first that long time ago. All these poor Dwarves (lots of them unknown except for this). And not to speak of Ori and Óin (and Balin...) who were my favourite ones (at least Ori and Balin definitely were. Although Ori not least also because of the fact that he wrote in Elvish script ).

I have to once again confess there is one thing I properly realised only now - that the lake reached as far as the door, and that's why the Dwarves could not get out of the Western Gate, they probably tried to get out by there, and the Watcher killed Óin (!Oh poor one! I really did not realise - he probably grabbed him by one of these tentacles of his and dragged him underwater!). I knew all the words, even what Gimli says to that, I could quote that if I was asked, but I did not understand what that means first, and later I did not actually stop to think about it. Only now I did. Odd.

In the middle of the reading, the Company is surprised - however, they surely defend themselves! I am actually quite shocked by the fact that Sam kills an Orc by himself. Just think of it, it's not like collecting potatoes. We are not in a braque-fantasy world or in a movie where a young lad is given a sword and immediately defeats five bandits. Sam could have been dead as well. And Frodo almost was - while, speaking of it, I never took this scene as serious as it probably was supposed to look. Well of course the reader knows about the mithril shirt, but he normally won't think about it (?) or maybe he would be intended to forget about it at the moment and think Frodo dead (?) but in any case, I never took it like that. I never worried about Frodo at this moment, unlike Aragorn and company, and it was not that I would know about the mithril shirt (I would belong to the first group, I did not even think about it).

The encounter with the Balrog "through the locked door" is what I really liked the most now - although on first reading, I was more interested by the more "visible" thing like the last encounter. Nowadays I like more this: Gandalf standing guard atop the stairs, his "exchange" with the "thing" inside, the dark cloud in the room, the "word of Command" (whatever that is).

Please note how the escape from the room (not speaking about the encounter itself, like the Cave-troll, which was also a thing I liked on first readings, when Frodo hit him by the Sting - btw did you realise the Cave-trolls don't have toes? Why, I'd wonder? And note that Boromir's blade is a little damaged after this encounter ) differs a lot from the movie adaptation, and I am not going to continue on here what I think about the portrayal, but just on this reading I realised how fantastic it is in the book, it is all in a hurry, but in total darkness and in silence - I really liked the atmosphere.

And now at last we have the Bridge. Let me note what I noticed, that when they arrive to the Bridge, Frodo is described to "suddenly see a black chasm". That sort of reminded me of the name of Moria itself: had the text been in Elvish, I wonder, would in this place have been written "and suddenly Frodo saw moria"? Funnily enough, it reminded me of the theory of fractals, if anyone heard about it - in this case, one could say that parts of things look like the things themselves. The encounter on the Bridge, in some way, reflects Moria as whole, don't you think?

I don't actually recall whether I was sad because of the loss of Gandalf, or whether it shocked me, or whether I missed him - but since I don't remember it, probably not? It happens so fast, anyway? But what definitely moved me was not the loss of Gandalf itself, but the last... well... paragraph. I mean the whole part after "Fly, you fools" until the end of chapter. It is so sad - and even now, really, it moved me deeply.

And a last thing the drums - they make sort of a refrain in this chapter, from the beginning to the end, however their meaning slowly changes. First, it is something like a thread, then it is a signal of the enemies coming, then it is only something like a "background theme music" and also a remind that the enemies are not gone yet, and in the end, it is sort of a... statement. Summing up of what happened. It's really well done that the drums are there.

P.S. Balrogs don't have wings. (A conclusion made in isolated way, from this one particular reading.)

[Formendacil]

Balrogs *don't* have wings--such has always been my take, so I shall put that here just in case the old coal still has enough fire to kindle some reaction.

The Book of Mazarbul, though I think its presentation would appeal to a wide variety of readers, really is the sort of passage that tells you about its author: this is a damaged, historically important manuscript, with loving detail lavished upon it by Tolkien--to the point of making facsimile. Most other authors would not have gone to such detail--and, if they had a Book of Mazarbul at all, I doubt this would be its last appearance: sending it off with Gimli would be a Chekhov's Gun for a later revelation of... something.

A detail I don't remember from my previous readings is Boromir's horn-call, an event with a definite force here. It gives us a trifecta of horn-calls from Boromir: a heroically brash one on the departure from Rivendell, a heroically defiant one here, and a heroically tragic one at Amon Hen.

It also struck me that, wolves or Nazgûl aside, this is the first battle we see Aragorn in, and he's clearly a badass with a mighty sword. Frodo is too, though Tolkien's slyer about that: Frodo's strike against the troll is more effective than Boromir's, and his decision to strike in the first place is fearless: not what you necessarily expect from hobbits, and something to remember much later when considering the later Frodo's pacifism.

[Galadriel55]

Speaking of the Book of Mazarbul, I've always wondered what became of it. Given all the misfortunes and trials of the Fellowship, starting with the mad run sans supplies from Tol Brandir, it would be a wonder if it would still be brought to Dain intact. In fact Gimli carried with him two treasures - the book and Galadriel's lock. Of the two, the lock is much easier to carry in its small box; the book seemed to me quite a heavy volume. Did Gimli bring it with him on the chase and in future battles? Was it left with the rest of the supplies, hidden near Tol Brandir? Did it ever reach Dain?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Balrogs *don't* have wings--such has always been my take, so I shall put that here just in case the old coal still has enough fire to kindle some reaction.

Originally Posted by The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.

It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it.

The Balrog of LotR is, as described by Aragorn, 'both a shadow and a flame'. It's actually interesting to reflect on the difference between this and the Fall of Gondolin version, which is very obviously a corporeal soldier - here, I don't think it's necessarily true that the Balrog has a single physical 'body' at all. It is Shadow, only vaguely condensed into man-shape; when it passes over the fire, it becomes Flame and Shadow both.

With that in mind, the question of whether it has wings is trivial to answer: yes, it does, Tolkien tells us so directly.

...the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.

The wings are of Shadow, just as the mane is of Flame. You wouldn't deny that the Balrog has a mane, even though it's obviously not hair (which would burn away): it is animate fire. Well, the wings are of animate shadow (they must be animate - shadows don't spread out naturally!).

As to whether Balrogs always have wings... well, that's a very different question.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Speaking of the Book of Mazarbul, I've always wondered what became of it. Given all the misfortunes and trials of the Fellowship, starting with the mad run sans supplies from Tol Brandir, it would be a wonder if it would still be brought to Dain intact. In fact Gimli carried with him two treasures - the book and Galadriel's lock. Of the two, the lock is much easier to carry in its small box; the book seemed to me quite a heavy volume. Did Gimli bring it with him on the chase and in future battles? Was it left with the rest of the supplies, hidden near Tol Brandir? Did it ever reach Dain?

You know, I never really remembered that Gimli took the Book with him. Thanks, both of you, for reminding me! Yet another puzzle to puzzle over...

hS

[Formendacil]

Ah! There's still some fire in the old dispute, after all! (Though perhaps it's fitting that my challenge comes from a newer member, rather than a survivor of the Balrog Wing Wars of the mid-aughts. ;-) )

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

With that in mind, the question of whether it has wings is trivial to answer: yes, it does, Tolkien tells us so directly.

See, you say this and then you immediately quote:

Originally Posted by The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

...the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.

I, uh, may have added a little non-authorial emphasis...

However, the reason we in the non-wing camp are so vociferous in our opposition rests on that little, but mighty word: "like." If Tolkien meant that the balrog stretched its wings, he would have said so. If he meant that it stretched its wings of shadow, he would have said so. If he meant the shadow of its wings, he would have said so.

Instead, he saids "the shadow" (i.e. the balrog) reached out like two vast wings. "Like" functions to compare things. If Tolkien is saying that "the shadow-wings stretched out like wings," he has come up with the most atrociously unimaginative simile possible.

I do, however, think that Huinesoron actually agrees with me, even if he doesn't know it:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

The wings are of Shadow, just as the mane is of Flame. You wouldn't deny that the Balrog has a mane, even though it's obviously not hair (which would burn away): it is animate fire. Well, the wings are of animate shadow (they must be animate - shadows don't spread out naturally!).

As to whether Balrogs always have wings... well, that's a very different question.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

The Balrog of LotR is, as described by Aragorn, 'both a shadow and a flame'. It's actually interesting to reflect on the difference between this and the Fall of Gondolin version, which is very obviously a corporeal soldier - here, I don't think it's necessarily true that the Balrog has a single physical 'body' at all. It is Shadow, only vaguely condensed into man-shape; when it passes over the fire, it becomes Flame and Shadow both.

I think there's a lot more traction to be gained arguing that balrogs don't possess corporeal forms as we think of them--they may not have the true mutability of form that the Valar do, or Sauron pre-Akallabêth, but they aren't substantive creatures in the same way as Men or Elves. If one focuses on THIS element, I think it is possible to say that the whole wings/no-wings argument misses the point.

But, of course, that means that, not having bodies per se, balrogs are excluded a priori from having wings.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

But, of course, that means that, not having bodies per se, balrogs are excluded a priori from having wings.

But that just means you're arguing about what the definition of 'wings' is. My argument - and you're absolutely right that I agree that Durin's Bane doesn't appear to have physical wings - is that if it's all made of incorporeal shadow, then the appearance is the thing. They look like wings - therefore, they are wings, because it's all animate Shadow anyway.

The Balrog doesn't have a mane, because a mane is made of hair. What it has is fire pouring from somewhere around its head (lion or horse mane?) and streaming behind it. It looks like a mane - therefore it is a mane.

It looks like wings - therefore it is wings. Without being physical wings.



hS

PS: Of course, the battle on the Endless Stair suggests that there is something corporeal about the Balrog... but if it has a 'mane' of fire, then it has 'wings' of shadow too. ~hS

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

In fact Gimli carried with him two treasures - the book and Galadriel's lock. Of the two, the lock is much easier to carry in its small box; the book seemed to me quite a heavy volume. Did Gimli bring it with him on the chase and in future battles? Was it left with the rest of the supplies, hidden near Tol Brandir? Did it ever reach Dain?

Well, Dain never saw it, nor learned the fate of Balin's expedition: he was slain at Erebor before the War's end. I think the book was preserved for his people, though. Gimli would have done all in his power to see to it.