Wizards' Pupils

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

It occurs to me that there's yet another way of thinking about this, in relation to the Shire itself.

Gandalf and Faramir love the Shire and work to protect it for the sake of that love. I realise that Faramir has never been to the Shire, but he is a Ranger (connected to those other Rangers who do protect the Shire) and he is connected with Ithilien, which is the most Shire-like land we see. He also comes to respect and admire the Hobbits, in particular Sam, and he seeks to learn about their land from them.

Saruman and Grima desire the Shire: they want its luxury goods, and then seek to consume it for their revenge.

In this respect, the Shire and Eowyn are themselves being connected to one another. Just as she is saved from the dangerous and consuming desire of Grima by the love of Faramir (thanks to the intercession of Aragorn), so too is the Shire saved from the dangerous and consuming desire of Saruman and Grima by the love of the Shirelings (thanks to the intercession of those Hobbits who have been caught up in Aragorn's story). In this way I think we can really see the Shire as the clearest example, even the most concrete, of the difference that exists between the desire that motivates Saruman (and his pupil) and the love that motivates Gandalf (and his pupil). The Shire as desired object becomes something to be owned by a single individual, and thus spoiled for all. The Shire as beloved object is owned and enjoyed by all, and is thus beautiful.

And this in turn brings me back to Eowyn: insfoar as she desires Aragorn she is following an essentially possessive and selfish desire -- she wants Aragorn for her self, so she can be free and happy, and have glory. Not bad desires, perhaps, but destructive. In the end, she moves past this desire (of and for the self) and toward a love with Faramir that allows her to think about and be part of a larger community, and to think of others: she will become the White Lady of Ithilien. . .which is, like I said, much like the Shire.

[Mithalwen]

It is interesting that you see Ithilien as the Shire - I think of Ithilien once it is in Faramir's care as a mini-Numenor. A land of gift, reward for part in struggle against a great enemy, fair but made more beautiful by the aid of elves. Faramir is so often associated with Numenor and I have a theory that his exceptional lifespan was a grace allowed him for his significant role in the downfall of Sauron. In this context, I see the relationship of Eowyn and Faramir as a positive balace to the dysfunctional one of Aldarion and Erendis which sowed the seeds of Numenor's downfall. In Ithilien, with Faramir and Eowyn, all things flourish..

It almost seems ironic that Faramir is "condemned" as a wizard's pupil, he has not learned sorcery from him but humanitarianism - the key lesson on the lines of " many who live deserve death and many who die deserve life - can you give it to them?". It is Farmir's humanity that saves the quest, sparing Gollum, letting Frodo go - in effect risking his own life by not copping out and following orders.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I always saw Ithilien as more of a successor to Lothlorien ... like; "We Men aren't all stone castles and deforestation, we appreciate nature too."

It really stems from how much Legolas enjoyed his short time there. Didn't he say that after he brought some of his kindred to fill Minas Tirith with trees, he would take them to Ithilien and wander for a while?

Not only does that suggest a friendship that he probably formed with Faramir, but also that this was one of those places ...

He was really into Fangorn, and presumably Rivendell as well, for different reasons, and even was made to love the Glittering Caves. But he talked about visiting those places, not staying there for any extended period.

I think Ithilien reminded him of Ossiriand. Not that he was ever an inhabitant of The Land of The Seven Rivers, but he probably, like most elves, knew something about it.

Could Faramir be called an Elf-Friend?

Aragorn certainly could ... probably Eomer too.

[Encaitare]

probably Eomer too.

I'm sure he could be, especially since his son's name, Elfwine, means "elf-friend."

[tar-ancalime]

And this in turn brings me back to Eowyn: insfoar as she desires Aragorn she is following an essentially possessive and selfish desire -- she wants Aragorn for her self, so she can be free and happy, and have glory. Not bad desires, perhaps, but destructive. In the end, she moves past this desire (of and for the self) and toward a love with Faramir that allows her to think about and be part of a larger community, and to think of others: she will become the White Lady of Ithilien. . .which is, like I said, much like the Shire.

Thank you for this! This is the best explanation I've heard for the relationship between Eowyn and Aragorn.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I love it when a thread shows us something that we all already knew, but didn't really know.

This idea of desire versus love was really right under our noses.

One of those invisible, taken for granted things that came with the territory of good versus evil, and how it would affect relationships ...

I feel all enlightened.

Once more, I am amazed at Tolkien's characterizations.

And other than that ... I can't think of anything to further progress this thread.

Well ... maybe I can.

It has to do with noble intent.

Because I think Faramir got off to a much better start with Eomer than Wormtongue did, and that was a pretty smart idea.

As a matter of fact ... if Wormtongue had any intent of attempting to 'woo' Eowyn, he was kind of out of luck. Not just because he was a bad guy, but because before Theodred died, which was only days before we met the Rohirrim, Eowyn practically had TWO brothers.

And kind of repeating the whole topic, Wormtongue viewed her as a prize. Faramir was willing to endure scorn and whatever else just to be with her ("taming one of the wild women of Rohan" and that sort of thing).

And then, there's this little bit;

Wormtongue was a coward. Faramir may have abhorred violence, but he fought anyway, for his people, for everybody.

[Mithalwen]

Actually it was Legolas's intention to bring his people and their plants to gondor, and then creating gardens for Faramir and Eowyn that made me think of the Elves of Eressea bringing gifts, particularly the birds to Erendis and of her rejection of them along with her marriage.