LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 06 - Lothlórien

[mark12_30]

Never before had he been so suddenly and so keenly aware of the feel and texture of a tree's skin and of the life within it. He felt a delight in wood and the touch of it, neither as forester nor as carpenter; it was the delight of the living tree itself.

And Encaitare adds : "A huzzah for the tree-hugging Professor! "

OK. Now be honest: how many of you have started touching tree-bark?

*raises hand*

If you have too, go post in the Middle Earth Essence thread.

[Boromir88]

Mark, I can't remember the name of the tree, but while I was in Nevada the tree-bark smelled like Vanilla. It was a refreshing smell, I actually broke off some tree bark and have it in my car for an air freshener, ack, I wish I could remember the name of the tree.

[Boromir88]

Bethberry, Boromir is my favorite character, in all of Tolkien. Some reasons for that would be because he doesn't hide things, he speaks his mind, he in general is good of heart and only wants Gondor to prevail. I love hearing other Barrowdowner's opinions, it get's me into insights that I've never seen before, and I will have to agree with you. Up to this point, Boromir has been one against the decisions of Aragorn, against the decisions of Gandalf. And seems to be in the Fellowship for all the wrong reasons (I will point out a few quotes in the next chapter discussion from "Mirror of Galadriel" to show this). The quality I like about Boromir is, as I said speaking his mind, to others it may seem arrogant and maybe is arrogant, but that's a quality I've always adored, people who are able to not be swayed by other's opinions. I'm also going to have to agree with Fordhim, if it wasn't for the battling times of Gondor, and his fighting at Amon Hen, Boromir would be out of place, and indeed look like a villain. He doesn't fit in Lorien, Lorien is a magical place, a peaceful place (atleast at this time), something that doesn't fit well for Boromir. Boromir cares little for magic, or lore, unlike his brother, which is why he doesn't fit well in Lorien, and is why he suits good for Gondor, who right now is facing war, Boromir's strength.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Boromir88 -- I think Betberry and I are not so much 'against' Boromir, or even down on him, as responding to the ambivalence that surrounds him in the book. I have been taken by Bb's view of Boromir as the most 'stereotypical' representation of the traditional Northern Ideal of Masculine Heroism. I don't think that he is being presented, then, as an opposite to Aragorn, or even as 'wrong' but as, like you say, out of place.

In the quest to destroy the Ring, there is no place for a hero (and he is a hero) like Boromir. He is all about defeating the enemy through strength of arms and ability; he is an individualist who epitomizes the heroic ideal (still the predominant heroic ideal in our society) that the individual who has capability and will is equal to the task and can win. For Boromir, dangers (like the Ring) are to be confronted and defeated, enemies are to be overthrown -- but in the Quest the Ring must be thrown away, with the result that Good (Lothlorien) will not 'win' over Evil (Mordor), but both will be diminished and fade from the world making it safe for good people (the fading Gondor; the mortal Arwen; the Rohirrim; the Hobbits).

I think that this sense of Boromir's being "out of place" in Lorien is the clearest representation that Boromir is simply not equipped for the task ahead. He still thinks that this is a War in which his side can have absolute victory over the enemy; those in the know -- like Aragorn and Frodo and, by the next chapter at least, Galadriel -- realise that there can be no absolute victory, only a mutual defeat: Sauron will be dismissed, yes, but the Golden Woods will fade and Galadriel will "pass into the West".

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The quality I like about Boromir is, as I said speaking his mind.

And when he does, it always has a zip to it. Pompous? I think he's rather witty. "What will you do then, leap over the falls?" "Where heads are at a loss, bodies must serve." "Lesser men with spades might have served you better."

[Boromir88]

Mark, good quotes, and I know what you mean, I've seen more examples of Boromir's "whittiness" but can't find them right now.

Lalwende, interesting, I think maybe what makes the elves not "perfect" would be their cockiness. I don't see them as "extremely pompous," but they got this certain swagger about them, to say as if they are better then everyone else. We see that with Gildor and Haldir.

Here's another quote of Haldir's.

"Some there are among us who sing that the Shadow will draw back, and peace shall come again. Yet I do not believe that the world about us will ever again be as it was of old, or the light of the Sun as it was aforetime. For the Elves, I fear, it will prove at best a truce, in which they may pass to the Sea unhindered and leave the Middle-earth forever. Alas for Lothlorien that I love! It would be a poor life in a land where no mallorn grew. But if there are mallorn-trees beyond the Great Sea, none have reported it."

This sort of sums up Fordhim's point about the Elves wish to "throw" away the ring, and not "use" it, and it will cost their lovely haven of Lorien. But, I find this rather funny on Haldir's part, Lorien is a beautiful place, but I would imagine Valinor as even more beautiful. Lorien is probably the most beautiful place to view on Middle-earth, in it's own way it is a "Valinor" of Middle-earth. But, I've always pictured Valinor as even more beautiful.

[Mithalwen]

I have wondered about those words of Haldir's and more frequently about Legolas' reaction to his message from Galadriel about the sea "Would you have her speak openly of your death?" - my conclusion was that for the silvan, and even Sindarin elves, Valinor has not the same significance as for the Exiles for whom the journey oversea is "going home". For Haldir going to Valinor because he had been driven out of Lorien by evil would be an exile. Lorien is home and however beautiful a place maybe... if it is not home it is not heaven. I mean as the relentless damp of an english November creeps into my bones, a carribean beach seems a great idea, but I would not want to be there forever, I think I would miss evern the murky days in time. There is something about Valinor that seems a little creepy to me... maybe I have a melancholy spirit but all that endless light and bliss..... it makes me think "Disney-land"/ cult and panic - i just know all those constantly happy, shiny people would get on my nerves very quickly ( I am currently working at a centre for adults with learning difficulties and I can tell you that the frequent practices of "Love will build a bridge" for the Christmas Concert has completely evaporated the milk of human kindness among the Office Staff). Maybe the idea of all that harmony implies the loss of "self", which perhaps is the true death.

[davem]

(Ideas sparked by some pm's to Fordim)

Its interesting to speculate on the 'peril' involved in entering Lorien - Why is it perilous to enter?

Perhaps because entering the otherworld forces a choice on the traveller - a choice between worlds, between perceptions, different existences. Frodo does make a choice, in the end - he chooses to 'trade' his 'reality' for that of the Elves - so in that sense we can see the 'peril' played out in his own life - he makes a choice from which 'there is no real going back - this is not simply a case of loss of innocence - its not simply the horrors he has seen or the suffering he has been through which prevents him going back, its his choice of the Elven world over the mundane. Whether he realised it or not, he cut himself off from returning to the Shire, his old life, by the choice he made.

He will forever walk on Cerin Amroth - but the deeper question is, did he always walk there - even before he left the Shire? Elven 'reality', elven 'time', is Dreamtime. After the destruction of the One it will fade from the world we know, & Frodo, by his choice will fade with it. The rest of the world will pass into history, into our reality, but Frodo won't - he will forever wander in 'Lorien' - & 'Lorien' in this sense is as much 'Valinor' as a place in Middle earth. He will wander there 'forever' psychologically, spiritually, wherever he may be physically, in 'our' world. He will never leave that other reality.

Of course, at the end, the Elven world will fade, its links with this reality of ours finally severed forever - so he is increasingly 'torn in two', but unlike Sam, who has chosen our reality, & whose choice will require him to let the elven world pass away, Frodo must go whither the Elves go. One can almost imagine Frodo & Sam standing on ships, anchored side by side, holding hands, but their ships are facing in different directions, & when the anchors are raised, they will slowly lose their grip & pass away in different directions.

We see in them different choices, freely made. Their love holding them together, but their choices pulling them apart.

There is 'peril' in Lorien, & the traveller brings it with him, because he brings himself. He is who he is, & his choice is a spiritual one, reflecting, ultimately, his essential nature. Frodo must leave the world - its as inevitable a fate as that of the Elves themselves. Frodo is as 'half-Elven' as a mortal can be, & his choice is the choice faced by all the half-Elven - to remain mortal, within the world, or to choose the West.

In this sense, it doesn't matter that Frodo remains mortal, & will eventually die & pass beyond the circles of the world - because in the context of LotR alone, we don't know that Frodo will die - it isn't stated - & all the hippy buttons proclaiming 'Frodo Lives' shows that readers who only had LotR believed that Frodo's passing into the West meant he would not die.

In Frodo & Sam we can see an echo of Elrond & Elros, & specifically, of Arwen - In Frodo & Sam we can see the consequences of the choice, the alternatives facing all the pereldar. Arwen's choice is Sam's choice - both choose the sweet & the bitter - mortality. Frodo, the dreamer, chooses rather the dreamworld - & those dreams are both real & unreal, eternal & transitory, here forever & always having just slipped from our grasp. Sam's sorrow is based in the realisation that Frodo's choice could never be his, & Frodo's that his choice could never have been Sam's.

Eternity is in love with the productions of time - it is, & vice versa. Sam & Frodo - the great tragic love story - tragic in the greatest sense, because the tragedy has been chosen by both parties - yet, being who they are, they could 'choose' nothing else.

'Choice'? Is it really? Perilous, certainly to enter the Golden Wood, Heart of Elvendom on Earth, not simply because the traveller brings evil with him, but because he brings who he is, his essential nature, & that will force him to make a 'choice' which ultimately is no-choice.

[Aiwendil]

Interesting thoughts, Davem.

At the risk of sounding boorish and mundane, though, I must say that I think "perilous" can be understood in a more obvious way as well - that is, there is the simple danger of becoming too enamored of Lorien, as of most good and pleasing things. Time passes in Lorien much as it does "when you're having fun". The realization by Sam of the time discrepancy on leaving Lorien reminds me of the feeling I get when I half-wake, still overcome with sleep, thinking that it's the middle of the night, only to discover that my alarm didn't go off and I'm late for class.

This is perhaps simply a more mundane expression of what you said. Coming into contact with the Elves (here as elsewhere in the Legendarium) results in enchantment and then longing - longing which cannot be fulfilled.

One minor quibble, though:

Of course, at the end, the Elven world will fade, its links with this reality of ours finally severed forever - so he is increasingly 'torn in two', but unlike Sam, who has chosen our reality, & whose choice will require him to let the elven world pass away, Frodo must go whither the Elves go.

I'm not so sure about Sam having "chosen our reality" or letting "the elven world pass away". The suggestion is certainly there that one day he will follow Frodo. Before the epilogue was discarded, the novel ended with:

They went in, and Sam shut the door. But even as he did so, he heard suddenly, deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.

Now, I know that the epilogue was discarded - but as far as I can tell the motivation for getting rid of it had nothing to do with Sam's spiritual character.

[Lalwendë]

I've just been browsing back through the posts and this comment from Saucepan Man made me think:

It's notable that Legolas is not only startled, but also frightened, by the challenge, notwithstanding that he must surely recognise the voice as that of an Elf. But it's a nice moment of tension, albeit one which is swiftly broken by the laughter of the Lorien Elves.

I often get the impression that amongst us as readers, the most common opinion of elves is that they are a benevolent people, gentle, beautiful and artistic. They are indeed all of these things, but Elves are also quite frightening, intimidating people. Consider that they have had many lifetimes of men to hone their fighting skills, and have untold and possibly 'magical' powers. The Elves in Mirkwood in The Hobbit are incredibly frightening and come across at first as quite unpleasant. Elrond and Galadriel are intimidatingly powerful, and Legolas rarely misses his mark as a hunter. Sometimes I find myself wondering if they are too perfect! It doesn't surprise me that Elves even intimidate each other, given their skills and powers.