LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 06 - Lothlórien

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

We can also see the relationship between Elves and Dwarves reflected here.

Originally Posted by Aldarion Elf-Friend

Finally, this chapter marks the final example of the contrast in Gimli's and Legolas' relationship.

Similar thoughts occurred to me while reading this Chapter.

While, as others have noted, there are a number of themes here, it seems to me that, to a large extent, this Chapter concerns Dwarves and Elves: their cultural identities and the relationship between them. We start the Chapter at the Eastern Gate of the ancient and culturally significant Dwarven realm of Moria and we end it at the heart of Elvendom on earth.

And more specifically, the Chapter largely concerns Gimli and Legolas. I have on other threads observed that these two are the least developed, in terms of the complexity of their characters, out of the Fellowship. I stand by that view. But this Chapter helps to build their cultural identity and give them a history.

In the previous Chapter, we were given an insight into Dwarven culture with the descriptions of Moria and Gimli's reaction to it. In this regard, this Chapter picks up where the previous one left off. We see that the former Dwarven realm extended beyond the caverns of Moria into the Dimrill Dale:

But still it could be seen that once long ago a great paved way had wound upwards from the lowlands of the Dwarf-kingdom. In places there were ruined works of stone beside the path, and mounds of green topped with slender birches, or fir-trees sighing in the wind.

The importance of this place within Dwarven culture is clear from Gimli's reaction to the Mirrormere. At first he resists the urge to tarry there, remembering Gandalf's words to him. But, on seeing Durin's Stone, he gives in to his need to take in the place properly:

"That is Durin's Stone!" cried Gimli. "I cannot pass without turning aside for a moment to look at the wonder of the dale!"

We learn of the significance of the Stone and the Mirrormere in Gimli's words to Frodo, and particularly when we see Gimli bowing to the Crown of Durin before turning and walking away.

Similarly, with Legolas we gain an insight into the importance of Lothlorien within Elven culture. Just as Gimli marvelled at the workings of Moria, Legolas marvels at the wonder and beauty of Lothlorien:

There lie the woods of Lothlorien" said Legolas. "That is the fairest of all the dwellings of my people. There are no trees like the trees of that land. For in the autumn their leaves fall not, but turn to gold. Not till the spring comes and the new green opens do they fall, and then the boughs are laden with yellow flowers; and the floor of the wood is golden, and golden is the roof, and its pillars are of silver, for the bark of the trees is smooth and grey. So still our songs in Mirkwood say.

And, of course, Legolas is inspired by the sound of Nimrodel to sing of the Elven maiden who gave her name to it and to relate to the Fellowship the tale of Amroth and Nimrodel. Although his home is far from this place, the song and the tale, and indeed Lothlorien itself, remain an integral part of his cultural heritage.

And, in addition to gaining an insight into their history, we learn more of Gimli and Legolas as characters. Both feature far more prominently in the dialogue than they have in previous Chapters. Gimli shares a moment with the Frodo as they stand at the Mirrormere together (and also later as they walk together). And it is Frodo who Legolas first introduces to Haldir and his companions. So both characters are closely linked with the Ringbearer, the central figure in the Quest, in this Chapter. (Notably, on both occasions Sam follows Frodo unbidden, almost automatically. Clearly, Sam is going to honour his commitment to stick with Frodo through thick and thin.)

But this Chapter does not simply concern Gimli and Legolas as individuals. It also concerns the nature of their relationship and (as Lalwendë has noted) the nature of the relationship between Dwarves and Elves generally. The tension between the races is reflected in Haldir's reaction to the presence of a Dwarf in the party and in the heated discussions which lead to the entire party being blindfolded. The stark difference between the modes of living favoured by the two races, which reflects their differing natures, has been commented on by Lalwendë, and this can also be seen in two comments made by their representatives within the Fellowship. In response to Frodo's indication that he has heard footfalls following the party, Gimili stoops low to the ground and comments that he can hear "nothing but the night-speech of plant and stone". In contrast to these earthy images, Legolas observes later in the Chapter that he is "at home among the trees".

It is the uneasy relationship between Dwarves and Elves and the differences between them that form the backdrop to the firm bond which subsequently develops between Gimli and Legolas. And there are hints here that foreshadow that friendship. The road that the Fellowship has followed leads from a (former) Elven realm (Eregion) through a (former) Dwarven realm (Moria) to another Elven realm (Lothlorien), providing a direct link between these three lands. Historically, there was friendship and co-operation between Dwarves and the Elves, and we are reminded of that here when Aragorn tends to Frodo's wounds and discovers the Mithril shirt: a mail corselet made by Dwarves for an Elven princeling.

It is also interesting that Haldir makes Legolas directly responsible for Gimli during their passage through Lothlorien. Indeed, he makes Legolas responsible for the entire Fellowship, but he specifically refers to the Elf's responsibility for the Dwarf. However grudging it may be at first, there is the beginning of a bond between the two of them here.

Some further observations:

Originally Posted by Aldarion Elf-Friend

Another thing that really stuck out to me in this chapter is the continuation of the "humanizing" of Legolas. Under Moria he displayed true fear for the first time, and here in Lorian, when confronted with the prospect of being blindfolded, he protests indignantly.

Another similar incident occurs when Legolas attempts to climb the Mallorn tree and is challenged by Haldir:

"Daro!" it said in commanding tone, and Legolas dropped back to the earth in surprise and fear. He shrank against the bole of the tree.

"Stand still!" he whispered to the others. "Do not move or speak!"

It's notable that Legolas is not only startled, but also frightened, by the challenge, notwithstanding that he must surely recognise the voice as that of an Elf. But it's a nice moment of tension, albeit one which is swiftly broken by the laughter of the Lorien Elves.

Finally, when the Fellowship stand on the edge of Lothlorien, Boromir comments that it is perilous (the perilous realm). In response, Aragorn says:

"Perilous indeed ... fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them."

What is interesting to me here is that is precisely what the Fellowship are doing. They are bringing an object of great evil into the perilous realm. Shouldn't they therefore fear the place?

[Bêthberry]

I fear to make a rather short and unsubstantial post after so many thoughtful and perceptive posts. I particularly like Mark12_30's point about the importance of water and the observation that only Frodo and Sam are injured in Moria (aside from Gandalf, of course).

Esty, Sam is also able to make jokes at his own expense:

"Once I do get to sleep," said Sam, "I shall go on sleeping, whether I roll off or not. And the less said, the sooner I'll drop off, if you take my meaning."

Saucepan Man wrote:
What is interesting to me here is that is precisely what the Fellowship are doing. They are bringing an object of great evil into the perilous realm. Shouldn't they therefore fear the place?

An interesting question, but one I think that can be answered by considering the nature of bringing evil. For now at least, the Fellowship is in control over that evil rather than being controlled by it. They themselves are not tarnished by the object. Thus, they themselves would have nothing to fear from the realm which opposes the Enemy who is the source of that evil. That is, the Fellowship and the Perilous Realm are in league together against that evil.

The point which struck me forcibly on rereading this chapter is the relative absence of Boromir. I think it is quite right to say the chapter focusses upon Gimli and Legolas as part of the developing them of rapproachment between their races. However, I am getting very much the sense that Tolkien has marked Boromir from the start, so to speak, for failure; he is in fact a foil who helps us see better Aragorn's honour. Boromir is rather a vain , perhaps even petulant and limited man.

As others of you have discussed very ably previously, in the Council of Elrond, Boromir appears proud, even conceited. I have the sense that, even though he is noble and bold, his attitude is presumptuous and hollow even. He lacks self-knowledge. He has had his role as heir to the Stewardship of Gondor given to him; he has not had to struggle to learn about that role, as Aragorn has had to struggle to learn how to perfect himself for Kingship.

In Moria, while Boromir fights valiantly, none of his actions provide substantial defense. He jimmies shut doors which ultimately are forced open. He is thrust down by an orc. It is Aragorn, with Andúril, who splits an orc's head, not Boromir. His horn only temporarily puts fear into the hearts of the orcs. Now, in Lothlorien, Boromir's only role is to be, well, perhaps querulous is unfair. Maybe call it obstreperous. He seems to be placed in the position of always arguing the limited point of view where Aragorn is given the broader perspective. His knowledge is shown to be limited.

It is possible I am reading too much into the contrast between Aragorn and Boromir, but I cannot help but think that Tolkien cleverly has each man act out very different qualities in the heroic ideal, even from the beginning. One is the hollow pretender who lacks substance while the other is tested and being found true. It is a very subtle depiction which contrasts the male boaster with the man of true worth. Vainglory versus true glory.

[mark12_30]

I'm behind in posting my notes and in reading the threads...but--

Saucie wrote:

However grudging it may be at first, there is the beginning of a bond between the two of them here.

In the previous chapter, when Gimli still lingered by Balin's tomb, it was Legolas who dragged him away.

(This for the esteemed H-I--
Just gave my water-post a major edit. See last three paragraphs.
Yours,
--"There's a Good Lassie")

[Lord Melkor]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

It is possible I am reading too much into the contrast between Aragorn and Boromir, but I cannot help but think that Tolkien cleverly has each man act out very different qualities in the heroic ideal, even from the beginning. One is the hollow pretender who lacks substance while the other is tested and being found true. It is a very subtle depiction which contrasts the male boaster with the man of true worth. Vainglory versus true glory.

Although I'm loath to disagree with a respected poster such as Bethberry, I'm afraid you're being too harsh on poor Boromir. After all, we later find out that Boromir is highly respected by many outstanding people, including Faramir, Imrahil, Eomer and basically every Gondorian. Aragorn and Legolas too consider him to be a noble man (as evidenced by their eulogy in the Two Towers). In fact, Boromir is universally admired and respected by all who know him. I find it hard to believe that all those outstanding people would admire a man you classify as a 'hollow pretender who lacks substance' and a 'male boaster'. Of course Boromir will look weak compared to Aragorn, but Aragorn is a pretty high standard to hold a man to. And Aragorn comes off as pretty arrogant at times too and makes a couple of dodgy judgement calls at times, like charging the Balrog. It's good thing Gandalf ended it right then and there or both Boromir and Aragorn would've been toast. (pun intended, thank-you-very-much) .At least Boromir could defend himself by claiming to be ignorant of a Balrog's power. I'm afraid that Aragorn, having spend most of his life around Elves and well-known in Elven lore (as evidenced by his knowledge of the Lay of Leithian), didn't have that luxury and must therefore have made the conscious decision to suicide-charge a Balrog. Pretty dodgy judgement if you ask me, unless he felt he could take on a Balrog, in which case he would be the one with the dangerously inflated ego, not Boromir.

I also agree that Boromir doesn't possess the knowledge Aragorn does, and that his assessment of Lothlorien was at least incomplete. But Boromir was simply telling what he had been taught by the Gondorian loremasters, while Aragorn was tutored by the Elves of Rivendel. Boromir never had access to Elven knowledge and therefore had to rely on the faulty knowledge he had been supplied with. Therefore, while your assessment that Boromir's knowledge was limited is true, I disagree with the implied statement that this was somehow Boromir's fault. Indeed, Faramir also considers Lothlorien to be perilous as does Aragorn, though Aragorn refines Boromir's statement. Therefore Boromir's remark wasn't completely without merit, but simply needed refinement which Aragorn courteously provided.

[mark12_30]

Yet another connection:

"Roads go ever ever on,
Over rock and under tree
By caves where never sun has shone
by streams that never find the sea."

By the time Bilbo sang this, he had been through Rivendell twice. Going East, he spent "fourteen days at least" in Rivendell, and "I wish I had time to tell you even a few of the tales or one or two of the songs that they heard in that house". During his westward return trip he spent a week there, "and he had many a merry jest and dance, early and late, with the elves of the valley."


I wonder how much that influenced his song. Gollum's cave certainly fits the description "Caves where never sun has shone" (and I suppose one could also argue that in Gollum's cave are also found "streams that never find the sea." Nevertheles, to me, the third line says "Moria" and the fourth, "Nimrodel." The two are bound, because it was from the chaos caused by the awakening of Durin's Bane that Nimrodel fled, til Amroth proposed to her on the borders of Fangorn. I wonder; did he end up connecting his own story to the Greater Story, to the lasting themes beloved of the elves that he heard during his times in Rivendell?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

So much to say, so much to read, so much to address in this wonderful chapter: *pant* *pant*.

'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'

I think that this comment is directed by Aragorn straight at Boromir, for he knows that Boromir, for all of his warrior’s abilities and nobility of heart, suffers from one of the greatest weaknesses in Men of this age: ignorance. Boromir doesn’t know about the Golden Wood, just as he didn’t know about the Balrog; Boromir is utterly ignorant of the conflict between light and dark that this chapter is so much about. Lord Melkor makes the interesting point that Boromir’s ignorance of the Balrog makes his charge more heroic than Aragorn’s which becomes by comparison foolhardy – to that, I would argue the contrary: it takes a brave man to charge a Balrog! (And you know what, given who Aragorn is, I think he might have stood a chance!) I’m afraid on this one I must agree with my esteemed colleague Bêthberry: Boromir is an admirable Man, but one who is interested primarily, if not wholly, in himself and his own land: his vision is narrow, and as a consequence he sees himself as a big fish in what turns out to be a pond smaller than he had supposed.

The word “perilous” is, of course, wonderful, for it sets up Lorien not as a dangerous place, but as one that is full of risks; it’s risky entering the Golden Woods, unlike going into Moria which is just downright dangerous. Like all risks, the dangers are offset by possible rewards. Nothing is given in Lorien without a commensurate price being paid (the Fellowship is admitted, but they must go blindfolded; they gain shelter for a time, but Gollum is now following them).

This leads me into another important comparison that I think is taking place in the chapter. The comments so far on the relationship between Dwarves and Elves have been wonderful, but what about the connection being stated between Lorien and the Shire?

'Welcome!' the Elf then said again in the Common Language, speaking slowly. 'We seldom use any tongue but our own; for we dwell now in the heart of the forest, and do not willingly have dealings with any other folk.'

'We had not heard of -- hobbits, or halflings, for many a long year, and did not know that any yet dwelt in Middle-earth. You do not look evil!'

Switch the words “Elf” and “Hobbit” in the above two quotes, and the speaker could easily be Ted Sandyman rather than Haldir! The Elves of Lorien seemingly have the same kind or parochial attitude as to the Hobbits: they are inward looking and concerned primarily with the preservation of their own world. In this way, they are a lot like Boromir as well, who knows little of the lands beyond Gondor and cares to know even less. In fact, of all the members of the Fellowship, it is only Aragorn (now that Gandalf is gone) who not only has knowledge of all these various realms, but who is welcome in each and is able to traverse them.

Frodo makes the distinction between Rivendell as a land of “memory” and Lorien as a place where “the Elder Days” still exist. This is the continuation and perhaps the fulfilment of his move from the Shire, where he got his first real ‘history lesson’ – he’s moving from history (the distanced and objectified relation of the past) through memory (personal/individual apprehension of the past) to actually being in the past. davem has already magnificently addressed the nature of Lorien as a timeless realm so I shall not duplicate his points here. I will merely add to this point the observation that from this point of the narrative and following, the company will move away from this timeless ‘heart’ and into the realm of history once more. It’s almost as though, having moved from history to the personal experience of the past, the company is now fully prepared to participate in that continuing history.

This chapter ends with one of the most affecting moments in the book; it gets me every time:

And taking Frodo's hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as living man.

This moment always reminds me of the affinity between Frodo and Aragorn; they are two very different kinds of heroes, but there are some important commonalities. For Aragorn, Lothlorien is his Shire: it is where he is content, and where he would like to remain at his ease forever, but it is his doom to leave this place forever in order to save it. Both Aragorn and Frodo gain through the course of their trials a wider vision of the world – Aragorn has already achieved this, while Frodo is on his way toward this wider view. The consequence of this larger apprehension, however, is the loss of the easy innocence which allows others to remain within the closed borders of their world. It’s telling that it is Frodo and Aragorn who stand atop Cerin Amroth and see ‘the lay of the land’ for they are the two heroes who are on journeys that will end with a full view of the world. The rest will be able to retain some of their innocence, some of their limited view, and retreat within the comfortable confines of their homes at the conclusion. At the same time, I think that Boromir is there as a warning against adopting too closed a view: by refusing to see wider or beyond, he falls to the peril of the Ring.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Fordie

The consequence of this larger apprehension, however, is the loss of the easy innocence which allows others to remain within the closed borders of their world. .... It’s telling that it is Frodo and Aragorn who stand atop Cerin Amroth and see ‘the lay of the land’ for they are the two heroes who are on journeys that will end with a full view of the world.

Also interesting that both Aragorn and Frodo, with their full view of the world, *choose* to depart it. Aragorn chooses to depart from a grey-stone bier in Rath Dinen, 'The Silent Street', leaving Gondor and Arnor to his son despite Arwen's tears (Arwen will depart from Cerin Amroth, oft mentioned above).

Frodo chooses to depart from the Mithlond pier and 'The Straight Road', leaving The Shire to Sam, despite Sam's tears.

Fascinating connection indeed, Fordie.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalwende

The realm of Lothlorien is constructed upwards, out of the ground by making use of the trees and building within them; the elves use flets and live up high in the treetops as the ground is not a safe place to be. In Moria, the realm is built downwards, into the very roots of the earth. While the Elves are made safer by going upwards, towards the heavens as it were, the Dwarves are endangered by delving too deeply.

This is interesting - especially in that traditionally Elves do not live up trees, they also live under the earth, in the Hollow Hills. The traditional Elven dwelling is of the kind we find in Doriath, Nargothrond, & Mirkwood. But often entering the earth through a tunnel or passageway leads the traveller into another world, with stars, moon & sun shining within the earth. What we have in Moria is almost a descent into hell, ending with a confrontation with a demon. Adtually, living in trees seems quite an odd lifestyle - very 'Boy's Own', in fact - which of us didn't enjoy climbing trees, & who (if they didn't have one) wouldn't have loved a treehouse?

Symbolically, though, it does seem significant that danger is within the earth, & that 'salvation' is to be found in being as far away from the earth as possible.

Mirrormere is, as you say, different from Galadriel's Mirror, in its function & in what it symbolises. Mirrormere is 'passive' - it doesn't so much 'reveal' as merely reflect, & it reflects 'eternity' - days may pass, sun & moon may cross the sky, people may pass by & look into its depths, but it doesn't reflect any of that, it reflects only the depths of space, the mountains & the stars of Durin's crown. What that says about the psyche of the Dwarves, I'm not sure. Perhaps their choice of working in stone & metal is part of it, the desire to create 'permanence' (who knows, maybe in their secret hearts they desire to become things of stone, permanent, unchanging - physically 'eternal'. Elves focus on temporary things - trees, cloth, books, language. The mortal race seeks permanence, while the immortal race are drawn to the transitory. As Blake said 'Eternity is in love with the productions of Time' which would seem to sum up the Elves, & the corollary, that the 'productions of Time are in love with Eternity' perhaps sums up the attitude of mortals.

Originally Posted by Helen

. In this tale of two lovers (known and retold in three major elf-settlements) that sets the flet-lifestyle for all the elves of Lorien, and represents 'the heart of elvendom on earth'-- the stream never met the sea; that desire is unfulfilled in Middle-Earth.

Water is the significant element - it divides, & unites (there are watercourses to cross - many of them dangerous, but the two sides are linked by the water), it reveals (Galadriel's Mirror)& conceals (Mirrormere), it bars & allows access (ultimately the Sundering Sea itself).

As to Bethberry's & Fordim's points regarding the difference between Aragorn & Boromir, I must agree, up to a point. Yet, Aragorn, knowing his destiny, & his obligations, both to the Company & to his people, is undeniably reckless, & even if Boromir does not know the nature of the Balrog, he does display a selfless courage in the act of running to Gandalf's aid - no less than Eowyn displays in her defence of Theoden - & she has no more knowledge of what the Witch King is than Boromir does of the Balrog.

I was reading an extract today from anew book about the end of WW2, specifically describing the last defence put up by the Hitler Youth. Its reckoned that they were far more dangerous than the adult soldiers, & would often surrender & then throw concealed grenades at their 'captors', & they would fight on longer than the adult soldiers, & have far less sense of personal safety. Basically, they, at 12, 13, 14 years old had not developed adult sensitivities, like compassion, respect for life, retaining still that 'childlike' visciousness which can be seen in schoolyards across the world.

Now, I don't want to compare Boromir to a Hitler Youth, but I always feel there is that kind of childlike 'certainty' of being absolutely right, of being willing to fight to the end, & use any means to hand to win, no matter who suffers. Boromir to me is a man who has never really grown up. He sulks, expects to be the centre of attention, knows he's RIGHT, & can't believe everyone else is so stupid that they can't see it. He looks for glory in battle & probably never quite believs he could die, or that anything really bad could ever happen to him. It makes him a great warrior, but not the kind of person you really want around when things are peaceful - because if he is around things won't stay peaceful for very long. He certainly is admired for his prowess, loved by his kin & respected by his men, but he's simply not 'loveable' in himself. Lord Melkor is right up to a point:

Aragorn and Legolas too consider him to be a noble man (as evidenced by their eulogy in the Two Towers). In fact, Boromir is universally admired and respected by all who know him.

But, as Shippey (I think) has pointed out, the 'eulogy' of Aragorn & Legolas, doesn't ever say Boromir was a nice guy - He is 'fair', 'tall', 'bold', he 'fought many foes'. He will be missed by the people of his city - obviously - he is a great Captain, & they are fighting a desperate war. But can we imagine him in a settled, loving relationship, with children, ruling as Steward in a time of peace? No - well, I can't. Of the two, Faramir is the grown up. Boromir is a man who in a sense has been 'lucky' to have been born in wartime. His greatness comes only from the opportunities offered by war.

As to Bethberry's other point:

An interesting question, but one I think that can be answered by considering the nature of bringing evil. For now at least, the Fellowship is in control over that evil rather than being controlled by it. They themselves are not tarnished by the object. Thus, they themselves would have nothing to fear from the realm which opposes the Enemy who is the source of that evil. That is, the Fellowship and the Perilous Realm are in league together against that evil.

I'm not sure, & probably lean toward's SpM's position. The Fellowship do bring 'evil' into Lorien - the most evil (& dangerous) thing in existence (not that you'd know it by the way the rest of the Company act - forgetting Frodo & Sam & wandering off & leaving them on their own - imagine if some orc or warg had ambushed them & taken the Ring! Aragorn: 'OOPS! I knew there was something I was supposed to be doing back there!)

The Ring is taken into the 'heart of Elvendom on earth', & I suppose we can ask what the significance & symbolism of that is - the 'serpent' has entered 'Paradise' & temptation must inevitably follow. 'Middle earth's 'Eve' will be tempted by the power to become as God, but she is also Middle earth's 'Mary' & she will reject what is offered, choose the role of humble 'handmaid', pass into the West, & remain Galadriel.

[Guinevere]

One of my very favourite quotes is what Haldir tells the fellowhip:

The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair, and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater.

In the movie, they have Galadriel say "In all lands love is now mingled with grief." but characteristically left out the end of the sentence. "...it grows perhaps the greater"
Somehow this reminds me of the Silmarillion:
"Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Ea, and evil yet good to have been.