The 7 deadly sins vs. The 7 heavenly virtues.

[Boromir88]

Good posts everyone!

Now I have a few more questions.

Feanor, do you think the way Boromir generally was, for example, Angry, Lustful, Greedy...etc, do you think that had anything to do with his death? Or, maybe to put it as, do you think that's part of the reason he "died?" Where, people like Gandalf, Frodo, Sam, who are genrally "trustful" and let's say "good" were able to suceed? Or do you think that Tolkien didn't intend that?

Nurumaial, good job for distinguishing the difference between "good" pride, and "bad" pride. Good pride, meaning you are proud of you accomplishments, but not to the point where you are "arrogant" or "pompous," that is bad pride. Good job, for pointing out the difference.

Elianna, thanks for the different definitions, I believe from the site I got this from has the same definitions. Just to be more helpful, here is the site where I got the info.
http://deadlysins.com/

Mark_30, you welcome, very good point. So would you say another example would be, Boromir's lack of "hope," for he thought, like his father, that it was pointless to give the ring to a hobbit and march right into Mordor. So, do you think, when he lost that hope, and tried to take the ring from Frodo, that is what ultimately caused his death?

My point is that the 7 Sins & 7 Virtues are generic enough to be seen in any work of literature. That Tolkien was a devout Catholic does not mean that Middle-earth was consciously imbued with Catholic ideas about sin and virtue to any greater extent than a book written by a Jew, an atheist or a Moslem.

I couldn't agree with you more Numenor, you could very easily tie the virtues and sins into any piece of work, literature or movie, in a "good vs. evil" movie. But, I ask, do you think Tolkien (or any other novelist) intends on doing that? Or do you think we are reading too deeply, and since the as you say the "bad people" are just generally "tied" with being greedy, anger, lust?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Nurumaiel

I'm wondering if the first two quotes actually do show that Boromir is Proud, or if he has pride in a different way. I think the Pride that is sinful would be a vain pride. Pride is not necessarily a bad thing; it would be in the way that Pride is manifested.

There is certainly nothing sinful in pride, in the sense of nobility or self-confidence. Indeed, I would class confidence as a virtue as one can achieve much more if one is confident in one's abilities. Boromir displays both nobility and confidence. He is certainly confident in his skill as a warrior, and rightfully so.

Pride only becomes a negative quality where it leads to over-confidence or, as you say, arrogance. Again, Boromir displays both qualities. He is overly confident in his own ability to wield the Ring against Sauron and in defence of Gondor. And he is arrogant in thinking that he knows better than the Wise concerning what should be done with the Ring. He also displays a certain degree of arrogance during the Fellowship's journey south from Rivendell when, at times, he seeks to determine the route that the Fellowship will take.

The quotes that you give could be taken to denote either "good pride" or "bad pride". But I rather think that they hint at both sides of Boromir's proud nature at one and the same time.

[Nurumaiel]

The Saucepan Man, a very sensible suggestion, and one I would say is probably true. Since, in those two quotes, the word 'proud' could be changed to either 'arrogant' or 'majestic/dignified' and still work well, it makes sense that it probably does mean both. Now I feel like Doctor Watson.

But now that I have Boromir in my mind, I can't get him out. It seems to me that Pride was his main failing, so far as he had it in the bad sense, and led to a lot of his other lacks in virtue. I wonder if it's possible, also, that he was overly proud of his land and people? One reason he wanted the Ring was for Gondor's defense, but also for power. Power for him, for his father, for his people, for his land.

And certainly the Deadly Sins can be applied to him without much trouble, but obviously Boromir wasn't bad through and through. Which of the Virtues can be applied to him? Virtues that kept him from ultimate downfall in the end?

It seems to me that his 'redemption' was when he died like a true man and soldier. Nothing was ever told truly of Boromir's point of view when he fought the Uruks, but I'd imagine that at that moment all the good within him welled up, all the good that would be so many virtues that they could not be named in one. Not even Fortitude seems quite right.

And another thing occured to me while re-reading Feanor's post. Pride, Envy, and Anger are three of the Sins that can be attributed to Boromir. These three are feelings resulting from the weakness or strength of human nature, and not necessarily bad. Pride and Anger can be good if manifested in the correct way. Pride has already been explained I think, but Anger can also be a Just Anger. No instance comes to mind from LotR at this moment. I could be argued that Envy could be manifested in a good way. In older Jesuit schools the boys were each given a partner, and the two boys would compete with each other, each trying to be holier than the other. Envy for another's possessions would be wrong, but an envy that someone is, for example, more of a good person than you are could be argued as not a bad thing, depending on how the person reacted to the envy. If one were to snub the better person, and speak rudely to them as a result of their jealousy, it could not be good. But if it made one strive to be more like the better person, it would not be bad. A Envious Admiration, it could almost be called.

Besides this, Anger, Pride, and Envy are feelings, classified also as temptations, which won't be wrong if bad actions do not result from them, that is, if one does not give in to the temptation. Boromir was proud -- arrogant, and he acted 'superior' and spoke in an unseemly way to those who were wiser than he. Boromir was, at one point at least, angry with Frodo, and he gave in to his anger and attacked him. Boromir seemed always envious of those such as Aragorn, and this envy could have also prompted him to act arrogant towards the wiser. So it was not so much that he felt these things, but that he acted upon them. I suppose I don't have much point in saying this; just musings on my part.

Helen, good point! Another instance occurred to me, and that is Sam's lack of Charity at one point. I remember when my father read me LotR I was so full of hope when Smeagol touched Frodo's knee and actually looked human (hobbit). He had been arranging of how to kill Frodo without actually doing it, and for a moment there seemed some hope that he would reconsider and actually avoid Shelob's lair out of affection for Frodo. Sam awoke and saw him with his hand on Frodo's knees, and out of a lack of Charity immediately assumed bad and scolded him dreadfully. Smeagol became Gollum again and any small hopes were lost.

[ninlaith]

Many conclusions may be made about LOTR concerning the 7 deadly sins and the heavenly virtues. However, I don't think the point of the book was to really focus on either the deadly sins or the heavenly virtues as one. I think the point was to focus on both equally. One major point that I noticed was that none of the Hobbits, until overly corrupted by the ring, showed any sign of commiting one of the deadly sins. However, right from the beginning Men, such as Boromir, immediately displayed many of these sins. Of the two that I noticed the most I noticed the heavenly virtues which for the most part appeared in Sam. So I do think the 7 deadly sins and the heavenly virtues did have an influence on Sir Tolkiens writings.

[Sharkû]

This thread might be of interest to this discussion.

[Boromir88]

Thanks for the thread Sharku, I'm going to have to agree with Son of Numenor, and the others on that thread that Tolkien didn't "intentionally" incorporate the sins and virtues into his books.

Don't know exactly how to explain it, but it's the general idea of anyone, that a bad person is "greedy, lustful, angry, gluttonous...etc" and good people are "hopeful, faithful...etc." It's more of a "mental" belief where we without thinking, associate bad people with the sins and good people with the virtues, not something that is done intentionally, just something that is the general belief.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Perhaps if I can ever sit in one place long enough without accidentally deleting two hours worth of work , I can put together a decent reply! Anyhow...

Feanor, do you think the way Boromir generally was, for example, Angry, Lustful, Greedy...etc, do you think that had anything to do with his death? Or, maybe to put it as, do you think that's part of the reason he "died?" Where, people like Gandalf, Frodo, Sam, who are genrally "trustful" and let's say "good" were able to suceed? Or do you think that Tolkien didn't intend that?

No, I do not. I do not think Boromir was a sinful person (except for those sins that comes with human error and bad luck) at all. In fact, I think that Boromir was a highly virtuous person... until he was exposed to the Ring. The evil of the Ring affected everyone who knew of it, whether they saw it or not, but why Boromir so strongly? Would Boromir ever have succombed to the sins that I outlined before, had he not been exposed to it?

In terms of the Virtues, Boromir was a great guy.

Of Faith: As illustrated in some passages of The Two Towers, men of Gondor are religious.

"Ware! Ware!" cried Damrod to his companion. "May the Valar turn him aside! Mumak! Mumak!" (Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit; page 646)

"...we look towards Numenor that was, and beyond to Elvenhome that is, and to that which is beyond Elvenhome and will ever be." (The Window on the West; page 661)

In that sense of faith, Boromir, as a son and heir to the House of Stewards, he, I would imagine, would hold a rather high amount of faith. He also has faith in the ability of Gondor to prevail, and in the hearts and courage of the men he leads.

Of Hope: Boromir travelled to Imladris in the first place in hopes of unravelling a mystery. He had no way of knowing if he'd ever make it or not; he did not even really know where he was going, but he continued, and prevailed, just because he had such strong hope that his travel would be worth it.

Of Charity: Boromir was a soldier. A captain of Gondor. What better way to help the needy than by devoting your life to their protection?

Of Fortitude: I should not even have to explain the depths of Boromir's courage, but for appearance's sake, I will site a reference:

"And very valiant indeed he was: no heir of Minas Tirith has for long years been so hardy in toil, so onward into battle, or blown a mightier note on the Great Horn." (The Window on the West; page 665)

Of Justice: Boromir was a captain of Gondor. If he was not just, he would not have that position (or so I sincerely hope).

Of Temperance: I have no canon proof of anything on this subject, so I will skip it.

Of Prudence: Being careful... not making stupid decisions... In a life of soldiery, as a higher-up, so to speak, Boromir would not have lived as long as he did without some show of prudence.

But after Boromir's first contact with the Ring, descriptions of him change slightly from the reverance of his underlings and brother, to his moods and his actions. Boromir's fall into sin came only after confronted with pure evil.

Of Pride: As Nurumaiel said, there is a difference between pride and arrogance. Before, if Boromir was proud of himself, he had every reason for it. To repeat myself,

"And very valiant indeed he was: no heir of Minas Tirith has for long years been so hardy in toil, so onward into battle, or blown a mightier note on the Great Horn." (The Window on the West; page 665)

And yet, as Faramir says of men of Gondor:

"We boast seldom, and then perform, or die in the attempt.

It was after Boromir became part of the Fellowship that he started insisting that his voice be heard, that he started showing off:

Of Envy: Boromir never would have envied Frodo (never would have had a reason too), had he not lusted after the Ring. Two sins for one... the Dark Side must have loved that one.

Of Gluttony: Yet again, no canonical evidence that I know of. If you can find a passage describing in great detail Boromir's over-indulgence of food, than please share.

Of Lust: Boromir lusted after the Ring. I know that any lusting on his part otherwise (unless it was for Arwen or something) would have no applicability to the story, and would therefore not be there, but I really can't see pre-Ring Boromir as being a lusty guy.

Of Anger: Sure everybody gets angry, but the reference I used for this was of Boromir attacking Frodo. No Ring, no circumstances, no anger, no attack. Easy to see, yes?

Of Greed: Greed for power, I suppose. Boromir wanted Gondor to have the power to conquer all the bad guys. That's not really a bad thing, when idea is NOT enhanced by the idea of a Ring that could give you that power.

Of Sloth: Yet again, no canonical evidence on this one. It's not particularly likely that he was the lazy type of guy.

Anyhow, do you see my point? Boromir was a good, nay great, man... until the Ring took effect on him. He was not inherently sinful, although, like any human, he had the inborn ability to maybe give in under the right circumstances.

Fea