**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**

[Findegil]

Going back to front:

I can live with this, but the Material from Q30 is very limited.

I am myself not sure if any sentence of Q30 will survive unchanged in our final version. But when we worked out our drafts without a fixed storyline to bind us, I at least did in some places change the storyline for the sack of detail (even if unintentional). As Aiwendil pointed out that is clearly unwanted. And in addition we did discuss much more textual details than the real problematic storyline issues when working with our drafts. Both problems seem to be cured now.

How does Melian notices that Thingol is dead? I think that it is safe to assume that the both of them are linked in some way that would allow Melian to know wether or not his hröa is destroyed or not.

Agreed.

Is the Girdle at this time automatically removed or do we need for Melian to leave for it to be gone?

I think we are not going to answer that question if we can in any event avoid it. To do so would be interpreting JRR Tolkiens text and is clearly something we should leave for our readers. If we could leave that ambiguous and have Melian bring the message to Beren and Lúthien, I would not have any objection against that. But I can't in the moment see that work out.

In addition I don't see why she would not warn the people of Doriath as you suggest in your option 1. If a message was send to Beren and Lúthien by some one else than Melian than the Elves of Doriath would have had a warning. The Elves were without a leader (especially if we take the hunt, with many of the Lords slain beside Thingol) and in addition the march-wardens of the north that had as jet fought a war out of a effective protection would now need to protect the realm by their own strength. In such a situation a warning immediately before the attack would not help much. It would lessen the surprise but not so much as to save the day for the Elves. (If Thingol had planed a war against the Dwarves, thinks would have been otherwise.)

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:

I think we are not going to answer that question if we can in any event avoid it.

I think this may be the best way to go, if possible.

I agree, though, that in either case Melian could still warn Beren and Luthien in Ossiriand before departing.

About Man of the Wold's points:

Note 1 - Agree with Findegil; "outlaw" is fine.

Note 2 - I'm still a bit torn about Mim's death. It is said in the extension of GA that preceded "Wanderings" that "Hurin comes to Nargothrond and slays Mim the petty-dwarf". Of course that could simply be compression. I suppose I still lean toward the Q30 version, though I can't say for sure that I won't change my mind.

Note 3 - The fate of the outlaws still strikes me as the most difficult point in the chapter, and I can think of nothing to add to what has already been said about it.

Note 4 - I'm not sure that Man of the Wold's suggestion "ruins the gesture" the way the Q30 version does. But there is no source for it. Also, it appears to be completely unnecessary, as the outlaws would still have to be kept alive up to that point.

Note 5 - I don't think the healing by Melian can be justified in our text at all.

Note 6 - Nothing to add here.

Note 7 - I agree with Man of the Wold here; Thingol's desire for the gold seems fine to me.

Note 8 - Again agreement.

Note 9 - I think that, if all else fails, we can always fall back on the single sentence of Q30 for the quarrel, so the story point definitely stands.

Note 10 - Certainly the Dwarves of Belegost play no part. As for Mim's death - I don't see it necessarily as unusable even as a disingenuous excuse.

Note 11 - I actually half agree with Man of the Wold here. I don't think that the power of the Girdle was necessarily absolute. Perhaps it could have been overcome by treachery. But I think that in our version it must be the case that it was not in fact overcome by treachery. The note that Findegil mentions makes that plain.

Note 12 - I think it's possible for some of the Elves of Doriath to be treacherous. But, again, I don't think that it's useable in our version.

Note 13 - I agree with Findegil - we cannot use a version like that.

Notes 14, 15 and 16 - I addressed these points briefly above and can think of nothing to add. Is there still a disagreement between Findegil and Maedhros here?

Note 17 - Agree.

[Maédhros]

Findegil, I thought that you were going to make a new draft for us to use in this chapter using the Chapter 14 referece of the Quenta.

[Findegil]

Sorry for the long delay, but at first I thought it would be good to wait until the discussion had cleared even the last open points and then the task was driven by other things from my mind.

So now here we go:
Our basis text is: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa (Q30)

Hurin gathered therefore a few outlaws of the woods unto him, and they came to Nargothrond, which as yet none, Orc, Elf, or Man, had dared to plunder, for dread of the spirit of {Glomund}[Glaurung] and his very memory. But one Mîm the Dwarf they found there. FD-SL-03{This is the first coming of the Dwarves into these tales of the ancient world; and it is said that Dwarves first spread west from Erydluin, the Blue Mountains, into Beleriand after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.} Now Mîm had found the halls and treasure of Nargothrond unguarded; and he took possession of them, and sat there in joy fingering the gold and gems, and letting them run ever through his hands; and he bound them to himself with many spells. But the folk of Mîm were few, and the outlaws filled with the lust of the treasure slew them, though Hurin would have stayed them, and at his death Mîm cursed the gold.
FD-SL-03{And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Hurin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Hurin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves.}<TT Now {Úrin}[Húrin] caused his followers to bear this gold to the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and they murmured at that, but he said: ‘Are ye become as the drakes of {Melko}[Morgoth], that would lie and wallow in gold and seek no other joy? A sweeter life shall ye have in the court of that king of greed, an ye bear such treasury to him, than all the gold of Valinor can get you in the empty woods.’
Now his heart was bitter against {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and he desired to have a vengeance on him, as may be seen. So great was that hoard that great though {Úrin}[Húrin]'s company might be scarce could they bear it to the caves of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] the king, and some 'tis said was left behind and some was lost upon the way, and evil has followed its finders for ever.
Yet in the end that laden host came to the {bridge before the doors}[border of Doriath], and being asked by the guards {Úrin}[Húrin] said: ‘Say to the king that {Úrin}[Húrin] the Steadfast is come bearing gifts[.’]{,’ and}[And when] this was done{.}>, < Year 502 of The Grey Annals, WH Húrin {is}[was] admitted in pity.> Then Hurin bade cast it all at the feet of Thingol, and he reproached the Elfking with wild and bitter words. 'Receive thou,' said he, 'thy fee for thy fair keeping of my wife and kin.'
Yet Thingol would not take the hoard, and long he bore with Hurin; but Hurin scorned him, and wandered forth {in quest of Morwen his wife, but it is not said that he found her ever upon the earth}; and some have said that he cast himself at last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men.
<TN Now {therefore} did {those}[some] of {Úrin}[Húrin]'s band murmur, and one said to the king: 'Lo, lord, our captain {Úrin}[Húrin], an old man and mad, has departed, but we have no mind to forego our gain.'
Then said {Tinwelint}[Thingol] for neither was he untouched by the golden spell: {‘Nay then, know ye not that this gold belongs to the kindred of the Elves in common, for the Rodothlim who won it from the earth long time ago are no more, and no one has especial claim' to so much as a handful save only Úrin by reason of his son Túrin, who slew the Worm, the robber of the Elves; yet Túrin is dead and Úrin will have none of it; and Túrin was my man.’
At those words the outlaws fell into great wrath, until the king said: }‘Get ye now gone, and seek not O foolish ones to quarrel with the Elves of the forest, lest death or the dread enchantments of Valinor find you in the woods. Neither revile ye the name of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] their king, for I will reward you richly enough for your travail and the bringing of the gold. Let each one now approach and take what he may grasp with either hand, and then depart in peace.’>
<editorial bridge Thus the outlaws departed, ><TN and none may say what was {his}[there] unhappy weird thereafter; and little but a tortured heart got {he}[they] from the Gold of {Glorund}[Glaurung].>
Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon gold began to fall even upon the king of Doriath, and long he sat and gazed upon it, and the seed of the love of gold that was in his heart was waked to growth. Wherefore he summoned the greatest of all craftsmen that now were in the western world, since Nargothrond was no more (and Gondolin was not known), the Dwarves of Nogrod FD-SL-18{ and Belegost}, that they might fashion the gold and silver and the gems (for much was yet unwrought) into countless vessels and fair things; and a marvellous necklace of great beauty they should make, whereon to hang the Silmaril.
But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?' Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril.
And Thingol, falling deeper into the thraldom of the spell, for his part scanted his promised reward for their labour; and bitter words grew between them, and there was battle in Thingol's halls. There many Elves and Dwarves were slain, and the howe wherein they were laid in Doriath was named Cum-nan-Arasaith, the Mound of Avarice. But the remainder of the Dwarves were driven forth without reward or fee.

Since we have not come to a final decision about some points in the next §§ I will spilt the text her to Version a and Version b:

Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod FD-SL-18{and in Belegost} they returned at length, FD-SL-20a and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen they FD-SL-21a{passed into Doriath secretly. There they} surprised Thingol upon a hunt with but small company of arms and {Thingol was slain} < HoME11; The Tale of The Years {Somehow it must be}[somehow they] contrived [it] that Thingol {is}[was] lured outside {or induced to go to war beyond} his borders and {is}[was] there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian {departs}[departed], and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}[was] ravaged by the Dwarves.>

Now for version b:

Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod FD-SL-18{and in Belegost} they returned at length[.] FD-SL-20b {, and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen they passed into Doriath secretly. There they surprised Thingol upon a hunt with but small company of arms and Thingol was slain } FD-SL-21b < HoME11; The Tale of The Years Somehow {it must be}[they] contrived [it] that Thingol {is}[was] {lured outside or} induced to go to war beyond his borders and {is}[was] there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian {departs}[departed], and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}[was] ravaged by the Dwarves.>

Further one we will again take only on text

[And]{, and} the fortress of the Thousand Caves taken at unawares and plundered; and so was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand.
FD-SL-23 Queen Melian {the Dwarves could not seize or harm, and she} went forth to seek Beren and Luthien. Now the Dwarfroad to Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains passed through East Beleriand and the woods about the River Gelion, where aforetime were the hunting grounds of {Damrod and Diriel}[Amrod], son{s} of Feanor. To the south of those lands between the river Gelion and the mountains lay the land of Ossiriand, watered by seven streams, Gelion, Ascar, Thalos, Legolin, Brilthor, Duilwen, Adurant. There lived and wandered still in peace and bliss Beren and Luthien, in that time of respite which Luthien had won, ere both should die; and their folk were the Green Elves of the South, who were not of the Elves of {Cor}[Tirion], nor of Doriath{, though many had fought at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears}. But Beren went no more to war, and his land was filled with loveliness and a wealth of flowers; and while Beren was and Luthien remained Elves called it oft {Gwenh-i-cuina }[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the Land of the Dead that Live.
To the north of that region is a ford across the river Gelion, near to its joining with Ascar that falls in torrents from the mountains; and that ford is named {Sarn-athrad}[Sarn Athrad], the Ford of Stones. This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached the mountain passes that led unto their homes and there Beren fought his last fight, warned of their approach by Melian. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; {and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain,} and well nigh all their host[ were slain]. FD-SL-24<Sil77 {but}[But] some escaping from the ambush held together, and fled eastwards towards the mountains. And as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.> FD-SL-26 <TN But now stood Naugladur and few were about him, and{ he remembered the words of Gwendelin, for} behold, Beren came towards him and he cast aside his bow, and drew a bright sword; and Beren was of great stature{ among the Eldar}, albeit not of the girth and breadth of Naugladur of the Dwarves.
Then said Beren: ‘Ward thy life an thou canst, O crook-legged murderer, else will I take it,’ and Naugladur bid him even the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the necklace of wonder, that he be suffered to go unharmed; but Beren said: ‘Nay, that may I still take when thou art slain,’ and thereat he made alone upon Naugladur and his companions, and having slain the foremost of these the others fled away amid elfin laughter, and so Beren came upon Naugladur, slayer of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]. Then did that aged one defend himself doughtily, and 'twas a bitter fight, and many of the Elves that watched for love and fear of their captain fingered their bow-strings, but Beren called even as he fought that all should stay their hands.
Now little doth the tale tell of wounds and blows of that affray, save that Beren got many hurts therein', and many of his shrewdest blows did little harm to Naugladur by reason of the {[?}skill{]} and magic of his dwarfen mail; and it is said that three hours they fought and Beren's arms grew weary, but not those of Naugladur accustomed to wield his mighty hammer at the forge, and it is more than like that otherwise would the issue have been but for the curse of Mîm; for marking how Beren grew faint Naugladur pressed him ever more nearly, and the arrogance that was of that grievous spell came into his heart, and he thought: ‘I will slay this {Elf}[Men], and his folk will flee in fear before me,’ and grasping his sword he dealt a mighty blow and cried: ‘Take here thy bane, O stripling of the woods,’ and in that moment his foot found a jagged stone and he stumbled forward, but Beren slipped aside from that blow and catching at his beard his hand found the carcanet of gold, and therewith he swung Naugladur suddenly off his feet upon his face: and Naugladur's sword was shaken from his grasp, but Beren seized it and slew him therewith, for he said: ‘I will not, sully my bright blade with thy dark blood, since there is no need.’ But the body of Naugladur was cast into the {Aros}[Ascar].>
But Beren took the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves, whereon was hung the Silmaril; and it is said and sung that Luthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor, and that for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Gods, and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.
Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river Ascar, and named it anew Rathloriel, Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained.
FD-SL-30{And in time the brief hour of the loveliness of the land of Rathloriel departed. For Luthien faded as Mandos had spoken, even as the Elves of later days faded, when Men waxed strong and usurped the goodness of the earth; and she vanished from the world; and Beren died, and none know where their meeting shall be again. Yet it hath been sung that Luthien alone of Elves hath been numbered among our race, and goeth whither we go to a fate beyond the world.}
FD-SL-29 Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of Beren and Luthien, king in the woods, most fair of all the children of the world, for his race was threefold: of the fairest and goodliest of Men, and of the Elves, and of the spirits divine of Valinor[.]<Sil77 Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel. The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray, for she was born on a night of stars, whose light glittered in the spray of the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house.>{; yet it}[Yet Dior was not] shielded {him not} from the fate of the oath of the sons of Feanor. For Dior went back to Doriath FD-SL-31 <TY and with the power of the Silmaril {restores}[restored] it>[,] and for a time a part of its ancient glory was raised anew, though Melian no longer dwelt in that place, and she departed to the land of the {Gods}[Valar] beyond the western sea, to muse on her sorrows in the gardens whence she came.
But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. FD-SL-32 <TN [Yet]{yet} is it to tell that bitterness entered into the hearts of the seven sons of Féanor, remembering their oath. Now {Maidros}[Maedhros], whom {Melko}[Morgoth] maimed, was their leader; and he called to his brethren Maglor{ and Dinithel,} and to {Damrod}[Amrod, and to Celegorm, to {Cranthor}[Caranthir] and to Curufin the Crafty{,}[.]> For while Luthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even {Maidros}[Celegorm] dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior's pride, the seven gathered again from wandering{; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own. But he would not yield the jewel unto them; and they came upon him with all their host; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf, and the most grievous. There fell Celegorm and Curufin and dark Cranthir, but Dior was slain and his young sons Eldun and Elrun}[.] <TN [And Celegrom] {and he} said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Féanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the southern vales, ‘and Elwing his daughter bears it whitherso she goes - but do you not forget,’ said he, ‘that we swore to have no peace with {Melko}[Morgoth] nor any of his folk, nor with any other of Earth-dwellers that held the Silmarils of Féanor from us. For what,’ said {Maidros}[Celegrom], ‘do we suffer exile and wandering and rule over a scant and forgotten folk, if others gather to their hoard the heirlooms that are ours?’>
<TY {Maidros}[Maedhros] restrains his brethren[.]><TN Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him give that fair jewel back unto those whose right it was; but Dior gazing on the loveliness of Elwing would not do so, and he said that he could not endure that the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], fairest of earthly craft, be so despoiled. ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] unbroken be given to the sons of Féanor,’ and Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone,><TY [he returned] {Dior returns} no answer[.]>
<TN Then went Curufin unto his brethren, <TY [and] Celegorn {inflames}[inflamed] the brethren[,]> and because of their unbreakable oath and of their [{?} thirst] for that Silmaril (nor indeed was the spell of Mîm and of the dragon wanting) they planned war upon Dior - and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of elfin folk upon elfin folk, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalie for their sufferings. Little good came thereby to them; for they fell unawares upon FD-SL-33{Dior}><TY east marches of Doriath>, and Dior{ and Auredhir were}[was] slain, <TY {There}[there] fell also Celegorn (by Dior's hand) {and Curufin and Cranthir.}>[,]FD-SL-34 Q30 and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again.<TN {yet}[Yet] behold, <TY {The}[the] Lady {Lindis}[Nimloth] escaped with Elwing>{Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth a Gnome, took her unwilling} in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and[ they] came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], so that the sons of Féanor saw it not; but <TY [the]{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegrom seized] Dior's sons ({Elrun and Eldun}[Eluréd and Elurín]) and {leave}[left] them to starve in the forest. (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir[iand].><Sil77 Of this Maedhros[ later] indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing[.]>
<TN [A] {a} host of Dior's folk, coming with all speed yet late unto the fray, fell suddenly on the{ir} rear[ of the host of the sons of Feanor], and there was a great battle, {and Maglor was slain with swords, and Mai.... died of wounds in the wild,} and Celegorm was pierced with a hundred arrows, and {Cranthor}[Caranthir] beside him. Yet in the end were the sons of Feanor masters of the field of slain, and the {brown}[grey] Elves{ and the green} were scattered over all the lands unhappy, for they would not hearken to {Maidros}[Maedhros] the maimed, nor to {Curufin}[Maglor] and {Damrod}[Amrod] who had slain their lord>[.]
FD-SL-36 Q30 {Yet the sons of Feanor gained not the Silmaril; for faithful servants fled before them and took with them Elwing the daughter of Dior, and she escaped, and they bore with them the Nauglamír, and came}[And] in time <TY hearing the rumour /that the survivors of Gondolin had reached the Havens/ {she}[Nimloth] fled> to the mouth of the river Sirion by the sea.

You will see that I have given in to Maedhros desire to have Melian as the Messenger to Beren and Luthien. After some pondering I came to the conclusion that in effect Melian did fail to hold the girdle in place. Why this was the case we are not told. So there is no great difference what she does afterwards. Equally if she left Doriath going to Valinor or to Ossiriand, she left her people unprotected.
The single point left now where we still do not agree is the fight of the Dwarves against Doriath. In version a we can add some further details but I don’t see that for version b. I repeat my self for post 58 : It all comes down to the question if we will take "Thingol is lured outside {...} his borders" or "Thingol is {...} induced to go to war beyond his borders". I do not see any forcing reason to drive us one way or the other. And even if some one could bring in such a reason, I still think that option b could be a planed revision that is unworkable for us, while option a we could nicely incorporate into existing writings.
In the end of my working (the fight of the Feanorians against Dior) I introduce much more detailed material since that was what was agreed upon in the discussion before and I found it not necessary to search first more storyline-like sentence to expand them later. The result is a nearly not readable text, if it is forum-formated, my apologies for this. But it shows nicely were I am aiming at in the end.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Great work Findegil, as of yet, I have not been able to read it in great detail but it looks very good for now.

I think that we are still missing the link between the last part of the Wanderings of Húrin and that of the beginning of chapter 14 of the Quenta.

I still think that there are lots of details that can be added to our story in general. Such as an exchange between the dwarves and Thingol, etc.

You will see that I have given in to Maedhros desire to have Melian as the Messenger to Beren and Luthien. After some pondering I came to the conclusion that in effect Melian did fail to hold the girdle in place. Why this was the case we are not told. So there is no great difference what she does afterwards. Equally if she left Doriath going to Valinor or to Ossiriand, she left her people unprotected.

Thanks.

The single point left now where we still do not agree is the fight of the Dwarves against Doriath. In version a we can add some further details but I don’t see that for version b. I repeat my self for post 58 : It all comes down to the question if we will take "Thingol is lured outside {...} his borders" or "Thingol is {...} induced to go to war beyond his borders". I do not see any forcing reason to drive us one way or the other. And even if some one could bring in such a reason, I still think that option b could be a planed revision that is unworkable for us, while option a we could nicely incorporate into existing writings.

I really think that the way that you handled the crux of the matter of the dwarves attacking Thingol is the way to go. I would chose option b myself because in there you do not use the elven traitors that I have been against their inclusion.

In the end of my working (the fight of the Feanorians against Dior) I introduce much more detailed material since that was what was agreed upon in the discussion before and I found it not necessary to search first more storyline-like sentence to expand them later. The result is a nearly not readable text, if it is forum-formated, my apologies for this. But it shows nicely were I am aiming at in the end.

I really liked those additions in a general sense, I would hope that if Aiwendil is ok with them.

[Findegil]

Posted by Maedhros:

I would chose option b myself because in there you do not use the elven traitors that I have been against their inclusion.

It seems I have polarised it to much. The elven traitors should not be the singel point to vote for option b! It is ofcourse possible to work out option a without them. I will call that option c:

Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod FD-SL-18{and in Belegost} they returned at length, FD-SL-20c{ and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen} they FD-SL-21a{passed into Doriath secretly. There they} surprised Thingol upon a hunt with but small company of arms and {Thingol was slain} < HoME11; The Tale of The Years {Somehow it must be}[somehow they] contrived [it] that Thingol {is}[was] lured outside {or induced to go to war beyond} his borders and {is}[was] there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian {departs}[departed], and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}[was] ravaged by the Dwarves.>

We should split the discussion here between the elven traitors and the way we us the famous note about the Dwarven invasion. I can go without the elven traitors, even when I still think that they are possible ingredent of the story that we have no hard evedence against. But it will need some hard discussions to drag me over to version b! In contrast to my own comment in post 58, I would now rather use the note completly if both of you are fixed in execluding the hunt. Which would bring us to version d:

Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod FD-SL-18{and in Belegost} they returned at length[.] FD-SL-20b {, and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen they passed into Doriath secretly. There they surprised Thingol upon a hunt with but small company of arms and Thingol was slain } FD-SL-21b <editorial brige The full tale of that battle was never told, but>< HoME11; The Tale of The Years {Somehow it must be}[somehow they] contrived [it] that Thingol {is}[was] lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and {is}[was] there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian {departs}[departed], and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}[was] ravaged by the Dwarves.>

Even if I provide these version I am still voting for a or if it must be c.

Posted by Maedhros:

I think that we are still missing the link between the last part of the Wanderings of Húrin and that of the beginning of chapter 14 of the Quenta.

Clearly yes. But our versions were driving close together, and there were no storyline issues in that part, so that I found we could deal with it later while adding details to the skeleton-storyline-version I created.

Posted by Maedhros:

I still think that there are lots of details that can be added to our story in general. Such as an exchange between the dwarves and Thingol, etc.

Thats for sure! But the issue was to creat a version of the story that we use as guideline while we add these details. The level of detail that I wish for is more or less shown in the last part.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

FD-SL-29 Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of Beren and Lúthien, king in the woods, most fair of all the children of the world, for his race was threefold: of the fairest and goodliest of {Men}[the Edain], and of the {Elves}[Eldar], and of the {spirits divine of Valinor}[ Maiar of the Blessed Realm][.]<Sil77 Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel. The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray, for she was born on a night of stars, whose light glittered in the spray of the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house.>{; yet it}[Yet Dior was not] shielded {him not} from the fate of the oath of the sons of Fëanor. For Dior went back to Doriath FD-SL-31 <TY and with the power of the Silmaril {restores}[restored] it>[,] and for a time a part of its ancient glory was raised anew, though Melian no longer dwelt in that place, and she departed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse on her sorrows in the gardens whence she came.
But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. FD-SL-32 <TN Yet is it to tell that bitterness entered into the hearts of the {seven} sons of Fëanor, remembering their oath. Now Maedhros, whom Morgoth maimed, was their leader; and he called to his brethren Maglor and to [Amrod, and to Celegorm, and to [Caranthir] and to Curufin the Crafty{,}[.]> For while Lúthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even {Maidros}[Celegorm] dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior's pride, the {seven}[brothers] gathered again from wandering{; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own. But he would not yield the jewel unto them; and they came upon him with all their host; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf, and the most grievous. There fell Celegorm and Curufin and dark Cranthir, but Dior was slain and his young sons Eldun and Elrun}[.] <TN [And Celegorm] {and he} said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Fëanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the southern vales, ‘and Elwing his daughter bears it whitherso she goes - but do you not forget,’ said he, ‘that we swore to have no peace with Morgoth nor any of his folk, nor with any other of Earth-dwellers that held the Silmarils of Fëanor from us. For what,’ said {Maidros}[Celegorm], ‘do we suffer exile and wandering and rule over a scant and forgotten folk, if others gather to their hoard the heirlooms that are ours?’>
<TY {Maidros}[Maedhros] restrain{s}[ed] his brethren{[.]} [and]><TN {T}[t]hus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him give that fair jewel back unto those whose right it was; but Dior gazing on the loveliness of Elwing would not do so, and he said that he could not endure that the Nauglamír, fairest of earthly craft, be so despoiled. ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the Nauglamír unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone{,><TY [he returned] {Dior returns} no answer[.]>}[.]
<TN Then went Curufin unto his brethren, <TY [and] Celegorn {inflames}[inflamed] {the brethren}[them][,]> and because of their unbreakable oath and of their [{?} thirst] for that Silmaril (nor indeed was the spell of Mîm and of the dragon wanting) they planned war upon Dior - and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of {elfin}[elven] folk upon {elfin}[elven] folk{, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalië for their sufferings}. Little good came thereby to them; for they fell unawares upon FD-SL-33{Dior}><TY [the] east marches of Doriath>, and Dior{ and Auredhir were}[was] slain, <TY {There}[and there] fell also Celegorn (by Dior's hand) {and Curufin and Cranthir.}>[,]FD-SL-34 Q30 and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again.<TN {yet}[Yet] behold, <TY {The}[the] Lady {Lindis}[Nimloth] escaped with Elwing>{Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth a Gnome, took her unwilling} in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and[ they] came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the Nauglamír, so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but <TY [the]{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegorm seized] Dior's sons (Eluréd and Elurín) and {leave}[left] them to starve in the forest.> <Sil77 Of this Maedhros[ later] indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing[.]><TY (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir[iand].>
<TN [A] {a} host of Dior's folk, coming with all speed yet late unto the fray, fell suddenly on the{ir} rear[ of the host of the sons of Fëanor], and there was a great battle, {and Maglor was slain with swords, and Mai.... died of wounds in the wild,} and {Celegorm}[Curufin] was pierced with a hundred arrows, and Caranthir beside him. Yet in the end were the sons of Fëanor masters of the field of slain, and the grey Elves { and the green} were scattered over all the lands unhappy, for they would not hearken to {Maidros}[Maedhros] {the maimed,} nor to {Curufin}[Maglor] and {Damrod}[Amrod] who had slain[ed] their lord>[.]
FD-SL-36 Q30 {Yet the sons of Fëanor gained not the Silmaril; for faithful servants fled before them and took with them Elwing the daughter of Dior, and she escaped, and they bore with them the Nauglamír, and came}[And] in time <TY hearing the rumour /that the survivors of Gondolin had reached the Havens/ {she}[Nimloth and her company] fled> to the mouth of the river Sirion by the sea.

I have only added a few such things that are in bold. We cannot use seven of course because at that point there are only 6 of the alive.

I deleted {, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalië for their sufferings} this because the sons of Fëanor were already kinslayers at that point.

In here: and {Celegorm}[Curufin] was pierced with a hundred arrows, and Caranthir beside him.
Celegorm had to be deleted because he was already killed by Dior.

All of the other changes are very minor in nature, like the additions of prepositions and past tense of certain verbs.

There is this also:
<TY and[ they] came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the Nauglamír, so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but <TY [the]{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegorm seized] Dior's sons (Eluréd and Elurín) and {leave}[left] them to starve in the forest.> <Sil77 Of this Maedhros[ later] indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing[.]><TY (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir[iand].>

I altered the order of that parragraph just because I think that it reads better this way.

We should split the discussion here between the elven traitors and the way we us the famous note about the Dwarven invasion. I can go without the elven traitors, even when I still think that they are possible ingredent of the story that we have no hard evedence against. But it will need some hard discussions to drag me over to version b! In contrast to my own comment in post 58, I would now rather use the note completly if both of you are fixed in execluding the hunt. Which would bring us to version d:

I would really hope that we could use a little part of the hunt in our version. It all depends on Aiwendil really. I'm in favor of it.