Why is the Hated Loved? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Kuruharan · 10-08-2004, 05:35 PM

Quote:

What do you think that Tolkien was trying to say?

That human beings are very perverse.

We desperately desire a lot of things that are bad (or, if you prefer, "unhealthy") for us, but we want them anyway.

At the same time we know the damage these things can do to us and are afraid of it and angered by it when the damage is done, but we can't let go.

So we dislike the thing (hate) but we can't free ourselves from it because we still want it (love).

mark12_30 · 10-08-2004, 06:07 PM

The word "addiction" comes to mind.

If a guilty pleasure pleases and satisfies, it does so only for a time, and then the satisfaction is gone and replaced by guilt. So we indulge again. The cycle escalates til we realise that we no longer control ourselves; instead, the cycle of indulgence/guilt controls us.

Most people hate being out of control. Once we realize we are addicted-- helplessly addicted-- to a pleasure, we may hate it even as we indulge.

Gollum, Melkor, and Ungoliant are clear examples.

The other that comes to mind is dear Frodo; after the Ring was destroyed, he still longed for it: "It is gone, and now all is dark and empty." He knew how evil it was; none better. And he hated it. But that didn't free him from desiring it.

Imladris · 10-08-2004, 06:12 PM

All right....

But if they took pleasure in light, then why did the Valar send light across Middle Earth to stay Melkor's hand?

*is confused how this all works together*

Son of Númenor · 10-08-2004, 07:15 PM

I think Melkor's and Ungoliant's lust for the Silmarils has everything to do with the nature of evil - specifically, the desire to own & to corrupt all that is 'good'. Melkor desires omnipotence, essentially in the form of rulership over and corruption of all that was once Eru's (&, thus, the Valar's - the Light of the Trees, the Silmarils, etc.).

mark12_30 · 10-08-2004, 08:46 PM

Good point, Son Of Numenor-- I guess Morgoth's addiction is to power, not to light. So maybe addiction isn't the answer to why he hated the light but loved the silmarils. Food for thought.

Encaitare · 10-08-2004, 08:47 PM

Yes. Melkor and Ungoliant did not want to simply bask in the light and be near its beauty; they wanted to be the ones to own and control it. Out of greed and the lust for power, they were compelled to seek out the Silmarils. The simple action of sending light to "stay Melkor's hand" would perhaps frighten him, but not stop him -- I assume you are talking about the creation of the Sun and the Moon here? In this case, Melkor was definitely shocked by their creation, but it also served to infuriate him. He hated the fact that the Valar could control the light and he could not.

Evisse the Blue · 10-09-2004, 04:58 AM

So maybe Morgoth lusted for the silmarils exactly because they encompassed the pure and good ("light") that he was so afraid of. He wanted to corrupt that which was most precious to the good ones and most dangerous to him, therefore scoring a 'double victory': deprive the Valar and Elves of the light and confront his own fear in the process. Corrupting and ruling over the thing he feared and hated the most gave him a 'satisfaction' as similar to 'love' as he could get. Because he was technically 'unable' to feel 'love' - in the true sense of that word, so when we speak of love in relation to Morgoth and Ungoliant we mean lust, or a base satisfaction.

As for poor Gollum, (and Frodo. to some extent), it was a different story. Mark12_30's addiction idea comes close to explaining it, but it's so weird, because even when the Ring was in their possession, they felt no happier...Gollum was certainly miserable, hungry and grumpy even when he had the Ring, while poor Frodo had awful visions and felt helpless and terrified.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 10-09-2004, 07:29 AM

Good topic!

I think that perhaps the thread title is, however, the wrong way round. . .as it seems to me that these characters hate what they love, not the other way round.

Since nothing is evil in the beginning, then all beings must, by nature and definition, love the good. Some, unfortunately, get all messed up and confused in that love and begin to equate their desire to be near or with the good with the desire to possess the good. They don't want to share the good with others, but to own the good.

This makes them really mad, and they begin to hate -- not the good -- but the fact that they can't have the good as their own. They hate the way that the good is making them feel about themselves, and they externalise this hatred of themselves onto the good. So Melkor hates not the light, he loves the light, but the fact that he can't have the light for himself and the subsequent sense of loss, isolation and emptiness that he has imposed upon himself.

Er. . .right. . .?

Gilnaur · 09-20-2014, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark12_30

The word "addiction" comes to mind.

If a guilty pleasure pleases and satisfies, it does so only for a time, and then the satisfaction is gone and replaced by guilt. So we indulge again. The cycle escalates til we realise that we no longer control ourselves; instead, the cycle of indulgence/guilt controls us.

Most people hate being out of control. Once we realize we are addicted-- helplessly addicted-- to a pleasure, we may hate it even as we indulge.

Gollum, Melkor, and Ungoliant are clear examples.

The other that comes to mind is dear Frodo; after the Ring was destroyed, he still longed for it: "It is gone, and now all is dark and empty." He knew how evil it was; none better. And he hated it. But that didn't free him from desiring it.

This is the nature of addiction. The never ending cycle of craving and self-loathing when one gives in to the cravings.

Tar-Jêx · 09-20-2014, 06:03 PM

With Melkor's case, he likely loved possessing the Silmarils, but hated the pain they caused him.

With Gollum, I'd say similar to Melkor, but more because the Ring forced him to love it, and the 'halfling' side of him hated what it had done to him.

I'm not sure what to think about Ungoliant and the light, however, as it isn't really expanded on like Melkor and Gollum.

10-08-2004, 06:07 PM	#2
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	The word "addiction" comes to mind. If a guilty pleasure pleases and satisfies, it does so only for a time, and then the satisfaction is gone and replaced by guilt. So we indulge again. The cycle escalates til we realise that we no longer control ourselves; instead, the cycle of indulgence/guilt controls us. Most people hate being out of control. Once we realize we are addicted-- helplessly addicted-- to a pleasure, we may hate it even as we indulge. Gollum, Melkor, and Ungoliant are clear examples. The other that comes to mind is dear Frodo; after the Ring was destroyed, he still longed for it: "It is gone, and now all is dark and empty." He knew how evil it was; none better. And he hated it. But that didn't free him from desiring it. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

10-08-2004, 06:12 PM	#3
Imladris Tears of the Phoenix Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Putting dimes in the jukebox baby. Posts: 1,453	All right.... But if they took pleasure in light, then why did the Valar send light across Middle Earth to stay Melkor's hand? is confused how this all works together __________________ I'm sorry it wasn't a unicorn. It would have been nice to have unicorns. I'm your huckleberry.

10-08-2004, 07:15 PM	#4
Son of Númenor A Shade of Westernesse Join Date: May 2004 Location: The last wave over Atalantë Posts: 515	I think Melkor's and Ungoliant's lust for the Silmarils has everything to do with the nature of evil - specifically, the desire to own & to corrupt all that is 'good'. Melkor desires omnipotence, essentially in the form of rulership over and corruption of all that was once Eru's (&, thus, the Valar's - the Light of the Trees, the Silmarils, etc.). Last edited by Son of Númenor; 11-11-2004 at 04:53 PM.

10-08-2004, 08:46 PM	#5
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Good point, Son Of Numenor-- I guess Morgoth's addiction is to power, not to light. So maybe addiction isn't the answer to why he hated the light but loved the silmarils. Food for thought. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

10-09-2004, 04:58 AM	#7
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,685	Very intersting topic, Imladris So maybe Morgoth lusted for the silmarils exactly because they encompassed the pure and good ("light") that he was so afraid of. He wanted to corrupt that which was most precious to the good ones and most dangerous to him, therefore scoring a 'double victory': deprive the Valar and Elves of the light and confront his own fear in the process. Corrupting and ruling over the thing he feared and hated the most gave him a 'satisfaction' as similar to 'love' as he could get. Because he was technically 'unable' to feel 'love' - in the true sense of that word, so when we speak of love in relation to Morgoth and Ungoliant we mean lust, or a base satisfaction. As for poor Gollum, (and Frodo. to some extent), it was a different story. Mark12_30's addiction idea comes close to explaining it, but it's so weird, because even when the Ring was in their possession, they felt no happier...Gollum was certainly miserable, hungry and grumpy even when he had the Ring, while poor Frodo had awful visions and felt helpless and terrified. __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.

10-08-2004, 08:47 PM	#6
Encaitare Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise Posts: 1,814	Yes. Melkor and Ungoliant did not want to simply bask in the light and be near its beauty; they wanted to be the ones to own and control it. Out of greed and the lust for power, they were compelled to seek out the Silmarils. The simple action of sending light to "stay Melkor's hand" would perhaps frighten him, but not stop him -- I assume you are talking about the creation of the Sun and the Moon here? In this case, Melkor was definitely shocked by their creation, but it also served to infuriate him. He hated the fact that the Valar could control the light and he could not.

10-09-2004, 07:29 AM	#8
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	Good topic! I think that perhaps the thread title is, however, the wrong way round. . .as it seems to me that these characters hate what they love, not the other way round. Since nothing is evil in the beginning, then all beings must, by nature and definition, love the good. Some, unfortunately, get all messed up and confused in that love and begin to equate their desire to be near or with the good with the desire to possess the good. They don't want to share the good with others, but to own the good. This makes them really mad, and they begin to hate -- not the good -- but the fact that they can't have the good as their own. They hate the way that the good is making them feel about themselves, and they externalise this hatred of themselves onto the good. So Melkor hates not the light, he loves the light, but the fact that he can't have the light for himself and the subsequent sense of loss, isolation and emptiness that he has imposed upon himself. Er. . .right. . .? __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.

09-20-2014, 06:03 PM	#10
Tar-Jêx Wight Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Armenelos, Númenor Posts: 205	With Melkor's case, he likely loved possessing the Silmarils, but hated the pain they caused him. With Gollum, I'd say similar to Melkor, but more because the Ring forced him to love it, and the 'halfling' side of him hated what it had done to him. I'm not sure what to think about Ungoliant and the light, however, as it isn't really expanded on like Melkor and Gollum.