"You carry the fate of us all, little one." - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Encaitare · 10-06-2004, 02:20 PM

If any character were to be considered a Christ figure, I would say it would have to be Gandalf. But as is laid out in the beginning of FotR, the book is not meant to be an allegory, but to be applicable. So I suppose we can apply it to nearly any situation we like and somehow come up with something reasonable.

Boromir88 · 10-06-2004, 02:38 PM

Tar-ancalime, being christian myself, I do like to sort of look at how Tolkien incorporates religion into his books. For example Eru, Valar, as Encaitare said ,Gandalf. For an honest answer, when making my comments about Frodo, christianity/religion never happened to pop into my mind. I do see what you mean though, how the phrase "taking on sins" is on the religious side.

Elladan and Elrohir · 10-07-2004, 10:18 PM

"The Lord of the Rings is a fundamentally religious and Catholic work. Unconsciously so in the writing, but consciously in the revision." - J.R.R. Tolkien

Although Tolkien "detest[ed] allegory in all its forms" (Prologue, The Lord of the Rings), he had a very definitely Christian worldview, and that shines through in all his writings. Obviously, The Silmarillion is very Christian in its account of the creation of Arda by Eru Iluvatar, and the fall of Melkor.

There are in fact three of what you might call Christ figures in The Lord of the Rings, though none of them present a complete picture of Jesus: each prominently display a different quality.

First, and first noticed on this thread, is Frodo. He is a Christ figure in the sense that he sacrifices everything he has and is to save his beloved Shire, and also Middle-earth. His torturous bearing of the Ring is very similar to Jesus taking the sins of mankind upon Himself. Obviously Frodo is incomplete in that he fails in the end and his Quest is only allowed to succeed through divine grace.

Second, there is Gandalf. Gandalf also makes a sacrifice on a slightly smaller scale: sacrifices himself to preserve the Quest and the lives of the rest of the Company in Moria. He is rewarded for this sacrifice by being allowed to return, in greatly enhanced power. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the main similarities between Gandalf and Jesus are their perfection, their sacrifice, and ultimately, resurrection. However, Gandalf is also incomplete: obviously, he is not God Himself, and like Frodo, depends on God's grace to vindicate him.

Finally, there is Aragorn. In Aragorn we see the kingly nature of Jesus, the promised Messiah of the Jews. Aragorn and Jesus are both descended in a right line from famous and powerful kings. Yet both hide their glory and majesty -- for a little while. They each have a job to do on Earth, albeit that the jobs are completely different ones. Obviously, Aragorn is also an incomplete Christ figure because, unlike Gandalf and Frodo, he makes no real sacrifice (other than waiting all those years to marry Arwen, and this is inconsequential). He is obviously not perfect.

So, in Frodo we see Jesus' sacrifice, in Gandalf we see His Resurrection, and in Aragorn we see Him as the King of Kings.

I'm not suggesting that Tolkien intentionally put Christ-like characteristics in these three main characters in LOTR, but it is certainly intriguing, especially for someone who is a Christian like he was, and like I am. Whether Tolkien intended it or not, these three main characters each point us, in different ways, to Jesus Christ.

Boromir88 · 10-08-2004, 06:04 AM

Tar-Ancalime:

Quote:

Boromir88, interesting idea about Frodo taking on the sins of others. Do you think of this as having a Christian resonance? In other words, are the Cracks of Doom Frodo's Crucifixion? Is the ship from the Grey Havens his Ascension?

I think that is a good possibility, thanks for bringing that up. I can see how the cracks of doom would be Frodo's crucifixion, there he doesn't physically die, but he is mentally dead, at this time probably thinking he's failed there is no hope left. The Grey Havens would be the only logical choice for Ascension, he's been wounded and needs to seek healing, to do that he goes to the Grey Havens. It's not like he doesn't love middle-earth anymore, but he isn't happy there, and he wants to be healed from his morgul wound. Similar to Celebrian.

Elladan, first off GREAT POST! I enjoyed reading it.

Quote:

Obviously Frodo is incomplete in that he fails in the end and his Quest is only allowed to succeed through divine grace.

I think Tolkien deals a lot with divine grace and a lot with fate. On the fate note, look at the Istari. Radagast represents Yavanna, so he of course, likes nature and birds. Saruman and Sauron (I know he's not an Istari, but might as well add him in too), are from Aule, they greed for money/power. Also, the Dwarves and Noldor are from Aule, they greed for riches and adore the items they make from their own hands. Gandalf was said to not really represent any Valar, but he was most like Manwe, so it is he who stays loyal to his quest and complete's the Istari's task. I believe that has something to do with fate, sort of like, you don't have control of what you do, it's who you are from, or who you represent, and that's who you end up in becoming.

Neferchoirwen · 10-08-2004, 10:42 AM

"taking on the sins of Middle Earth."

I generally agree with Frodo taking on a significant role in the middle of a eucatastrophy, bringing the One Ring to Mordor doesn't mean that he is taking on the "sins" of the entire world per se. In comparison to Christ, what he did was more than just throwing some "nuclear bomb" into where it should be. "Sins" right there seems to me as a heavy word.

Although, it is enough to say that Frodo did the improbable (because no one else would wanted to deal with the Ring and Mordor ever) and that made him Christ figure enough.

I agree more with the idea of Gandalf as a prophet. He does have a stellar identity (literally) more than the characters he interacts with will ever realize. He does remind me of Jesus Christ the man who gave up being a divine being in Heaven to help save the people of earth. But Gandalf takes on a more "behind the scenes" part in the comings and goings of Middle Earth. The amazing thing about him is that he puts up with the humans he deals with, and harnesses a lot of patience laced with a lot of fascination when he goes around. Call that unconditional love. But I don't find him of a Christ figure in that he did not sacrifice anything compared to what Frodo did. He was more of a fact-finding initiator and ambassador.

I do get it that Frodo, Gandalf and Aragorn put together make the complete picture of Christ. But the one who does it for me most is Frodo.

(as of this post, an earth quake just happened; at first, I thought I was getting dizzy and began to worry about forgetting the whole point of this post--oh well)

Elladan and Elrohir · 10-08-2004, 03:48 PM

Great post, Neferchoirwen!

I didn't intend to say that the Ring is the sins of Middle-earth, but it certainly is a good symbol for them. It represents the desire that was the first sin of Melkor: desiring power apart from Eru. It is also like sin in its (almost) irresistability to all (except Bombadil, of course).

Gandalf is very much a prophet, I agree, but his powers seem to go a bit farther than that. His healing of Theoden is, perhaps, the act of a prophet, but the charge to dispel the Nazgul in the fields of Pelennor is beyond any mortal's ability (and, obviously, we know he isn't mortal).

Tolkien called Gandalf "strictly an angelos" (the Greek word with the dual meaning of "angel" or "messenger"). This is a good way to describe him because, as mentioned, he is of divine race, and he was sent by the Valar with the explicit purpose of being a messenger to the Free Peoples of Middle-earth.

I agree with your comments on Gandalf and Frodo. This is certainly a fascinating discussion, and I look forward to more feedback.

tar-ancalime · 10-08-2004, 04:58 PM

Great posts, everyone!

The Elves, the Hobbits, and the Dwarves (and the Ents, too) are the diminishing races of Middle-Earth at the end of the Third Age. Why must Frodo take their tokens with him to Mount Doom? Why are Men, who will be the dominant race of Middle-Earth in the following Ages, only so peripherally involved in Frodo's symbolic Fellowship? Along the way, Men like Aragorn and Faramir provide aid to Frodo, but they never continue to travel with him in the way that Elves and Dwarves do (in the form of the items he is given). They remain in their own world, to fight different kinds of battles.

And most interesting to me (because I can't seem to reconcile it with my idea yet), why is it necessary for Frodo to lose the symbols of the other races and face the chasm naked and alone?

10-07-2004, 10:18 PM	#3
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	"The Lord of the Rings is a fundamentally religious and Catholic work. Unconsciously so in the writing, but consciously in the revision." - J.R.R. Tolkien Although Tolkien "detest[ed] allegory in all its forms" (Prologue, The Lord of the Rings), he had a very definitely Christian worldview, and that shines through in all his writings. Obviously, The Silmarillion is very Christian in its account of the creation of Arda by Eru Iluvatar, and the fall of Melkor. There are in fact three of what you might call Christ figures in The Lord of the Rings, though none of them present a complete picture of Jesus: each prominently display a different quality. First, and first noticed on this thread, is Frodo. He is a Christ figure in the sense that he sacrifices everything he has and is to save his beloved Shire, and also Middle-earth. His torturous bearing of the Ring is very similar to Jesus taking the sins of mankind upon Himself. Obviously Frodo is incomplete in that he fails in the end and his Quest is only allowed to succeed through divine grace. Second, there is Gandalf. Gandalf also makes a sacrifice on a slightly smaller scale: sacrifices himself to preserve the Quest and the lives of the rest of the Company in Moria. He is rewarded for this sacrifice by being allowed to return, in greatly enhanced power. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the main similarities between Gandalf and Jesus are their perfection, their sacrifice, and ultimately, resurrection. However, Gandalf is also incomplete: obviously, he is not God Himself, and like Frodo, depends on God's grace to vindicate him. Finally, there is Aragorn. In Aragorn we see the kingly nature of Jesus, the promised Messiah of the Jews. Aragorn and Jesus are both descended in a right line from famous and powerful kings. Yet both hide their glory and majesty -- for a little while. They each have a job to do on Earth, albeit that the jobs are completely different ones. Obviously, Aragorn is also an incomplete Christ figure because, unlike Gandalf and Frodo, he makes no real sacrifice (other than waiting all those years to marry Arwen, and this is inconsequential). He is obviously not perfect. So, in Frodo we see Jesus' sacrifice, in Gandalf we see His Resurrection, and in Aragorn we see Him as the King of Kings. I'm not suggesting that Tolkien intentionally put Christ-like characteristics in these three main characters in LOTR, but it is certainly intriguing, especially for someone who is a Christian like he was, and like I am. Whether Tolkien intended it or not, these three main characters each point us, in different ways, to Jesus Christ. __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

10-08-2004, 10:42 AM	#5
Neferchoirwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: RtR: 483.3 miles, Fords of Bruinen Posts: 512	Going back to "taking on the sins of Middle Earth." I generally agree with Frodo taking on a significant role in the middle of a eucatastrophy, bringing the One Ring to Mordor doesn't mean that he is taking on the "sins" of the entire world per se. In comparison to Christ, what he did was more than just throwing some "nuclear bomb" into where it should be. "Sins" right there seems to me as a heavy word. Although, it is enough to say that Frodo did the improbable (because no one else would wanted to deal with the Ring and Mordor ever) and that made him Christ figure enough. I agree more with the idea of Gandalf as a prophet. He does have a stellar identity (literally) more than the characters he interacts with will ever realize. He does remind me of Jesus Christ the man who gave up being a divine being in Heaven to help save the people of earth. But Gandalf takes on a more "behind the scenes" part in the comings and goings of Middle Earth. The amazing thing about him is that he puts up with the humans he deals with, and harnesses a lot of patience laced with a lot of fascination when he goes around. Call that unconditional love. But I don't find him of a Christ figure in that he did not sacrifice anything compared to what Frodo did. He was more of a fact-finding initiator and ambassador. I do get it that Frodo, Gandalf and Aragorn put together make the complete picture of Christ. But the one who does it for me most is Frodo. (as of this post, an earth quake just happened; at first, I thought I was getting dizzy and began to worry about forgetting the whole point of this post--oh well) __________________ On really romantic nights of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion. ~Speed Levitch http://crevicesofsilence.blogspot.com/

10-08-2004, 03:48 PM	#6
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	Great post, Neferchoirwen! I didn't intend to say that the Ring is the sins of Middle-earth, but it certainly is a good symbol for them. It represents the desire that was the first sin of Melkor: desiring power apart from Eru. It is also like sin in its (almost) irresistability to all (except Bombadil, of course). Gandalf is very much a prophet, I agree, but his powers seem to go a bit farther than that. His healing of Theoden is, perhaps, the act of a prophet, but the charge to dispel the Nazgul in the fields of Pelennor is beyond any mortal's ability (and, obviously, we know he isn't mortal). Tolkien called Gandalf "strictly an angelos" (the Greek word with the dual meaning of "angel" or "messenger"). This is a good way to describe him because, as mentioned, he is of divine race, and he was sent by the Valar with the explicit purpose of being a messenger to the Free Peoples of Middle-earth. I agree with your comments on Gandalf and Frodo. This is certainly a fascinating discussion, and I look forward to more feedback. __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

10-08-2004, 04:58 PM	#7
tar-ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: abaft the beam Posts: 303	Great posts, everyone! The Elves, the Hobbits, and the Dwarves (and the Ents, too) are the diminishing races of Middle-Earth at the end of the Third Age. Why must Frodo take their tokens with him to Mount Doom? Why are Men, who will be the dominant race of Middle-Earth in the following Ages, only so peripherally involved in Frodo's symbolic Fellowship? Along the way, Men like Aragorn and Faramir provide aid to Frodo, but they never continue to travel with him in the way that Elves and Dwarves do (in the form of the items he is given). They remain in their own world, to fight different kinds of battles. And most interesting to me (because I can't seem to reconcile it with my idea yet), why is it necessary for Frodo to lose the symbols of the other races and face the chasm naked and alone? __________________ Having fun wolfing it to the bitter end, I see, gaur-ancalime (lmp, ww13)

10-06-2004, 02:20 PM	#1
Encaitare Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise Posts: 1,814	If any character were to be considered a Christ figure, I would say it would have to be Gandalf. But as is laid out in the beginning of FotR, the book is not meant to be an allegory, but to be applicable. So I suppose we can apply it to nearly any situation we like and somehow come up with something reasonable.

10-06-2004, 02:38 PM	#2
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Tar-ancalime, being christian myself, I do like to sort of look at how Tolkien incorporates religion into his books. For example Eru, Valar, as Encaitare said ,Gandalf. For an honest answer, when making my comments about Frodo, christianity/religion never happened to pop into my mind. I do see what you mean though, how the phrase "taking on sins" is on the religious side.