LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 03 - The Ring goes South

[Bêthberry]

Right, right, Fordim. I have to remember that Napoleon's and Hitler's experience in Russia hasn't happened yet.

[davem]

'What do you think of your course now, Aragorn?'...

'I think no good of our course from beginning to end, as you know well,Gandalf.'

So, who's in charge? The obvious answer would be Gandalf - he is the leader of the Fellowship as they set out from Rivendell - yet it seems that they are following Aragorn's course. Gandalf has clearly submitted to Aragorn's choice of direction, yet all the time it seems he & Aragorn are arguing over which course to take. Both of them have passed through Moria before, both have evil memories of the place, but Aragorn it seems will take any route to avoid re entering the Mines, while Gandalf is constatnly seeking to disuade him. Why?

Was Aragorn aware of some specific menace, or just of a vague feeling of danger? And how much did Gandalf actually know? Why was he so insistent on passing through Moria - unless he knew of the Balrog, & the need to confront it, why would he even want to pass through? If, as Elrond had said of Gandalf:

..this shall be his great task, & maybe the end of his labours.

what did he mean? Did Elrond know of Gandalf's desire to enter Moria & face Durin's Bane?

What we see, at the very least, is a growing argument between the two leaders of the Fellowship. How much had Gandalf told Aragorn about what he desired to do, & more importantly, why he wanted to do it? Was Gandalf really willing to lead the Ringbearer into Moria, knowing the danger? And was Aragorn trying to protect the Ringbearer, & help to ensure the survival of the Quest by demanding that every alternative route be tried first?

Why was Gandalf so willing to risk everything to enter the Mines? Did he feel that whatever the danger was, confronting it was worth risking the Quest to face & defeat it?

It seems to me, that if Gandalf felt it was so necessary to enter Moria & face whatever was there, he could have left the party & gone in alone - but he didn't seem to consider that, so its not simply the case that he felt he had to go through Moria, but that all of them, including the Ringbearer, had to go through.

Of course, it could be simply that he felt that the way through the Mines would offer the greatest chance of concealment, so maybe all this speculation is wrong, but it seems to me there is a certain desperation on Gandalf's part to actually enter the Mines, which is not accountable for merely by a desire for secrecy.

I think what we also see is a dislike on Gandalf's part over not being in charge. Perhaps a reluctance to surrender authority - as if the 'old' powers of Middle earth were reluctant to let go.

[Aiwendil]

Davem wrote:

And how much did Gandalf actually know? Why was he so insistent on passing through Moria - unless he knew of the Balrog, & the need to confront it, why would he even want to pass through?

I don't think he did. From II.5:

'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'

Clearly he was not expecting this - in fact, the presence of the Balrog seems to resolve a mystery for him - for now he understands. Understands what? Possibly it means only that he understands what it was that used a counterspell against his earlier. But it may also have a wider sense - he understands the nature of Durin's Bane, the reason that Balin's colony did not survive, and the reason for Aragorn's premonition of danger.

But now we're getting ahead two chapters.

[Firefoot]

I had no time to read this chapter before last night and I see that I have missed out on a lot of good discussion. Anyway.

Davem:

I think what we also see is a dislike on Gandalf's part over not being in charge. Perhaps a reluctance to surrender authority - as if the 'old' powers of Middle earth were reluctant to let go.

I don't agree. I think that Gandalf makes it very clear that he respects Aragorn and his opinion, including one instance right in this chapter: "If you bring a Ranger with you, it is well to pay attention to him, especially if the Ranger is Aragorn." If Gandalf was really set on going into Moria, as the leader of the Fellowship he basically could have told Aragorn to shut up and go away (it different words, of course.) I think that Gandalf valued Aragorn's opinion and accepted him as sort of a secondary leader to the Fellowship. This, coupled by the danger that Gandalf knew was waiting in Moria (not meaning the Balrog, as I agree with Aiwendil, he could not have known about it), was why he went along with Aragorn's opinion to take the Caradhras route.

If you think about it, there really were no good options. Neither Gandalf nor Aragorn wanted to cross the Gap of Rohan, and with good reason. Taking the Ring so close to Saruman the traitor would not be a good plan of action. The Redhorn Pass in the dead of winter doesn't exactly sound like a joy trip. Even without Caradhras' special storm for them, it would have been bitter cold and snowy. And Moria, where there was obviously some kind of danger, as the Dwarves had received no news from Balin. However, I suppose Gandalf thought that Moria might have gone all right for them, if there were only Orcs and such and there were no mishaps. Besides, Gandalf had been through before, and obviously there was the element of secrecy added in. Undoubtedly, Sauron would be watching by now since the Nazgul had had two whole months to return to Mordor, as others have touched on. Gandalf's choice of Moria over Caradhras seems plausible to me.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Related to earth features such as Caradhras seeming to have some kind of
consciousness, I've always found this rumination by Legolas to be curious:

Only I hear the stones lament them (Calebrimbor's people): 'deep they delved us, high they builded us; but they are gone'.

Should he be taken literally? I tend to think so.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Related to earth features such as Caradhras seeming to have some kind of
consciousness, I've always found this rumination by Legolas to be curious:


Should he be taken literally? I tend to think so.

I tend to agree..... In some ways Legolas is an underdeveloped character, and says little especially during this phase of the journey (probably not unrelated to the fact that he hadn't quite " found his place" at this stage in the early drafts), but one of the things that gives him a depth beyond being the token keen sighted sharp-shooting elf, is his sensitivity to place. It can be seen here, will be seen a little later when he asks if they hear the voice of Nimrodel , in Fangorn and in Minas Tirith "The deeds of men wil lout last us Gimli". Maybe it is partly because he is an immortal being born into Middle Earth realtively late... the situation of the Sindar and silvan Elves at he end of the third age is rather different to that of the high. For them passing oversea is not "Going home" but something they do when desperate - like the people of Nimrodel. Yet if they remain they will diminish. Thinking about it - a lot of Legolas' speech is melancholy - if it isn't excessively light, flippant almost. At these times maybe he is overcompensating..

[Texadan]

The Hunter's Moon waxed round in the night sky, and put to flight all lesser stars. But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens, burning like a watchful eye taht glared above the trees on the brink of the valley.

Any clue what star this is and why it merited being singled out for such emphasis?