LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 03 - The Ring goes South

[davem]

Originally Posted by H-I

I see the point. I agree with it. But it seems also that Tolkien needed the Fellowship to set out on December 25 for the whole affair to have more explicitly symbolic meaning.

Tolkien himself writes in Lobdell: A Tolkien Compass:

:
'The fellowship ... left on December 25th, which then had no sgniificance, since the Yule, or its equivalent, was then the last day of the year & the first of the next year. But December 25th (setting out) & March 25th (accomplishment of the quest) were intentionally chosen by me'

'A guide to the names in LotR'

Originally Posted by Bb

Indeed, I would even go farther to suggest that such an attitude might reflect a serious error: to see the world solely in terms of the needs of men or hobbits. This would be, for my reading of the book, the arrogance of human centrism, believing that Eru had created Arda solely for the personal use of the human races and not for, well, whatever reason motivated his creation.

I think the qustion is whether its the sentient races who have 'fallen out of harmony' with the Land or vice versa. If all things proceeded from Eru in the beginning, then they should all have been in harmony at one time. The fact that they aren't is what seems to have led Tolkien to come up with the idea of 'Morgoth's Ring'.

[Bêthberry]

But it seems also that Tolkien needed the Fellowship to set out on December 25 for the whole affair to have more explicitly symbolic meaning.

Okay, HI. Cheesy plot device!

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I don't know, it strikes me that the two month's time before the Fellowship sets out makes perfect sense given the fact that they have no idea who might be out there looking for them. I mean, they've only just found out that Saruman is not to be trusted, and the Wraiths invaded the north of Eriador without anyone having any warning -- who is to say that there isn't a host of orcs out patrolling the southlands or the passes of the Mountains?

There were indeed some "real eye-openers" at the Council even for Gandalf and Elrond. Like all good commanders they aren't about to undertake their most important mission until they've made sure they have good intelligence. As we find out from Gandalf, it's a 40 day march to the Gap of Rohan, so it would make sense that it would take at least two months for the Elves to thoroughly scour all the lands of Eriador to make sure that the Ringbearer is not going to be picked off in an instant.

[Bêthberry]

Right, right, Fordim. I have to remember that Napoleon's and Hitler's experience in Russia hasn't happened yet.

[davem]

'What do you think of your course now, Aragorn?'...

'I think no good of our course from beginning to end, as you know well,Gandalf.'

So, who's in charge? The obvious answer would be Gandalf - he is the leader of the Fellowship as they set out from Rivendell - yet it seems that they are following Aragorn's course. Gandalf has clearly submitted to Aragorn's choice of direction, yet all the time it seems he & Aragorn are arguing over which course to take. Both of them have passed through Moria before, both have evil memories of the place, but Aragorn it seems will take any route to avoid re entering the Mines, while Gandalf is constatnly seeking to disuade him. Why?

Was Aragorn aware of some specific menace, or just of a vague feeling of danger? And how much did Gandalf actually know? Why was he so insistent on passing through Moria - unless he knew of the Balrog, & the need to confront it, why would he even want to pass through? If, as Elrond had said of Gandalf:

..this shall be his great task, & maybe the end of his labours.

what did he mean? Did Elrond know of Gandalf's desire to enter Moria & face Durin's Bane?

What we see, at the very least, is a growing argument between the two leaders of the Fellowship. How much had Gandalf told Aragorn about what he desired to do, & more importantly, why he wanted to do it? Was Gandalf really willing to lead the Ringbearer into Moria, knowing the danger? And was Aragorn trying to protect the Ringbearer, & help to ensure the survival of the Quest by demanding that every alternative route be tried first?

Why was Gandalf so willing to risk everything to enter the Mines? Did he feel that whatever the danger was, confronting it was worth risking the Quest to face & defeat it?

It seems to me, that if Gandalf felt it was so necessary to enter Moria & face whatever was there, he could have left the party & gone in alone - but he didn't seem to consider that, so its not simply the case that he felt he had to go through Moria, but that all of them, including the Ringbearer, had to go through.

Of course, it could be simply that he felt that the way through the Mines would offer the greatest chance of concealment, so maybe all this speculation is wrong, but it seems to me there is a certain desperation on Gandalf's part to actually enter the Mines, which is not accountable for merely by a desire for secrecy.

I think what we also see is a dislike on Gandalf's part over not being in charge. Perhaps a reluctance to surrender authority - as if the 'old' powers of Middle earth were reluctant to let go.

[Aiwendil]

Davem wrote:

And how much did Gandalf actually know? Why was he so insistent on passing through Moria - unless he knew of the Balrog, & the need to confront it, why would he even want to pass through?

I don't think he did. From II.5:

'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'

Clearly he was not expecting this - in fact, the presence of the Balrog seems to resolve a mystery for him - for now he understands. Understands what? Possibly it means only that he understands what it was that used a counterspell against his earlier. But it may also have a wider sense - he understands the nature of Durin's Bane, the reason that Balin's colony did not survive, and the reason for Aragorn's premonition of danger.

But now we're getting ahead two chapters.

[Firefoot]

I had no time to read this chapter before last night and I see that I have missed out on a lot of good discussion. Anyway.

Davem:

I think what we also see is a dislike on Gandalf's part over not being in charge. Perhaps a reluctance to surrender authority - as if the 'old' powers of Middle earth were reluctant to let go.

I don't agree. I think that Gandalf makes it very clear that he respects Aragorn and his opinion, including one instance right in this chapter: "If you bring a Ranger with you, it is well to pay attention to him, especially if the Ranger is Aragorn." If Gandalf was really set on going into Moria, as the leader of the Fellowship he basically could have told Aragorn to shut up and go away (it different words, of course.) I think that Gandalf valued Aragorn's opinion and accepted him as sort of a secondary leader to the Fellowship. This, coupled by the danger that Gandalf knew was waiting in Moria (not meaning the Balrog, as I agree with Aiwendil, he could not have known about it), was why he went along with Aragorn's opinion to take the Caradhras route.

If you think about it, there really were no good options. Neither Gandalf nor Aragorn wanted to cross the Gap of Rohan, and with good reason. Taking the Ring so close to Saruman the traitor would not be a good plan of action. The Redhorn Pass in the dead of winter doesn't exactly sound like a joy trip. Even without Caradhras' special storm for them, it would have been bitter cold and snowy. And Moria, where there was obviously some kind of danger, as the Dwarves had received no news from Balin. However, I suppose Gandalf thought that Moria might have gone all right for them, if there were only Orcs and such and there were no mishaps. Besides, Gandalf had been through before, and obviously there was the element of secrecy added in. Undoubtedly, Sauron would be watching by now since the Nazgul had had two whole months to return to Mordor, as others have touched on. Gandalf's choice of Moria over Caradhras seems plausible to me.