LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 03 - The Ring goes South

[Bêthberry]

Fordim wrote
Who among us finds the final line of the book "happy"? Joyful, yes, but there is a sense that as fulfilling as Sam's life will be now, it is somehow lesser and smaller. The whole story "winds down" rather than ends, and there are more stories to be told (the Appendices) not all of them entirely happy.

This reminds me quite forcibly of T.S.Eliot's "The Hollow Men."

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang, but a whimper.

I think for both Tolkien and Eliot, the wrenching changes of the early twentieth century were cause for profound melancoly at the passing of a world, an ethos, an entire cultural reference. Both writers in many ways strove to gather what they could of those passing values in hopes they would not be lost entirely. So, Fordim, I would suggest that reading Bilbo might require less a recourse to "our own experience of life" and more a consideration of the tenor of the story. To me, Bilbo's comments about writing should be seen within the gentle humour the elves show him and an almost sweetly or gently patronising attitude about the writer who is always talking about writing but never getting it done. Bilbo acknowledges, "I can't count the days in Rivendell." To me, Bilbo's time there has always signified an affectionate and gentle senility lived out in an "assissted living environment" , if I can use those words without being thought too negative.

davem posted:

Its certainly interesting to speculate on how far Tolkien had gone down the road to the idea of 'Morgoth's Ring' at this stage. Had he formulated the idea that Middle earth had been infected by an external evil in the form of Morgoth's malice yet, or was it more a case of 'the world, the flesh & the devil' - ie, the material world, matter itself, is a source of evil?

Seen in the context of the later idea, we could see Morgoth's malice deliberately targetting the Fellowship, but this isn't what comes across to me - nor does any feeling of Middle earth being 'evil' - its more that it has its own 'desires', its own emotions, almost, anger, pain, joy, etc,

I would agree that, in terms of LotR alone--which is all I think we should consider here-- there is no sense of malice. Indeed, I would even go farther to suggest that such an attitude might reflect a serious error: to see the world solely in terms of the needs of men or hobbits. This would be, for my reading of the book, the arrogance of human centrism, believing that Eru had created Arda solely for the personal use of the human races and not for, well, whatever reason motivated his creation. This is why I think it is important that the first defeat of the Fellowship comes not at the hand of an Enemy but of a world which is not designed solely for their own egotistic drives.

My own understanding is that they had to make sure all the Nazgul had been completely 'disembodied', which would force their return to Mordor, as they could not 're-embody' themselves. It seems, though I may be wrong, that only Sauron could provide them with the means to function, to have any presence at all, in the physical realm.

I know that is the reason given in the text, but I asked why Elrond had to delay because I think it is related to my point above: it is a decision which puts the Fellowship in more harm by causing their departure under inclement conditions. The messengers had no trouble passing over the mountain. Yet the Fellowship had to have trouble. Had Nazul been discovered to be embodied, how would that have changed the plans? Indeed, I cannot see how it would. The decision reflects, to me, a good intention but a flawed one and in that flaw lies part of the inexpressible melancoly of LotR, the poignancy of the 'long defeat.'

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Indeed, I cannot see how it would. The decision reflects, to me, a good intention but a flawed one and in that flaw lies part of the inexpressible melancoly of LotR, the poignancy of the 'long defeat.'

I see the point. I agree with it. But it seems also that Tolkien needed the Fellowship to set out on December 25 for the whole affair to have more explicitly symbolic meaning.

[davem]

Originally Posted by H-I

I see the point. I agree with it. But it seems also that Tolkien needed the Fellowship to set out on December 25 for the whole affair to have more explicitly symbolic meaning.

Tolkien himself writes in Lobdell: A Tolkien Compass:

:
'The fellowship ... left on December 25th, which then had no sgniificance, since the Yule, or its equivalent, was then the last day of the year & the first of the next year. But December 25th (setting out) & March 25th (accomplishment of the quest) were intentionally chosen by me'

'A guide to the names in LotR'

Originally Posted by Bb

Indeed, I would even go farther to suggest that such an attitude might reflect a serious error: to see the world solely in terms of the needs of men or hobbits. This would be, for my reading of the book, the arrogance of human centrism, believing that Eru had created Arda solely for the personal use of the human races and not for, well, whatever reason motivated his creation.

I think the qustion is whether its the sentient races who have 'fallen out of harmony' with the Land or vice versa. If all things proceeded from Eru in the beginning, then they should all have been in harmony at one time. The fact that they aren't is what seems to have led Tolkien to come up with the idea of 'Morgoth's Ring'.

[Bêthberry]

But it seems also that Tolkien needed the Fellowship to set out on December 25 for the whole affair to have more explicitly symbolic meaning.

Okay, HI. Cheesy plot device!

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I don't know, it strikes me that the two month's time before the Fellowship sets out makes perfect sense given the fact that they have no idea who might be out there looking for them. I mean, they've only just found out that Saruman is not to be trusted, and the Wraiths invaded the north of Eriador without anyone having any warning -- who is to say that there isn't a host of orcs out patrolling the southlands or the passes of the Mountains?

There were indeed some "real eye-openers" at the Council even for Gandalf and Elrond. Like all good commanders they aren't about to undertake their most important mission until they've made sure they have good intelligence. As we find out from Gandalf, it's a 40 day march to the Gap of Rohan, so it would make sense that it would take at least two months for the Elves to thoroughly scour all the lands of Eriador to make sure that the Ringbearer is not going to be picked off in an instant.

[Bêthberry]

Right, right, Fordim. I have to remember that Napoleon's and Hitler's experience in Russia hasn't happened yet.

[davem]

'What do you think of your course now, Aragorn?'...

'I think no good of our course from beginning to end, as you know well,Gandalf.'

So, who's in charge? The obvious answer would be Gandalf - he is the leader of the Fellowship as they set out from Rivendell - yet it seems that they are following Aragorn's course. Gandalf has clearly submitted to Aragorn's choice of direction, yet all the time it seems he & Aragorn are arguing over which course to take. Both of them have passed through Moria before, both have evil memories of the place, but Aragorn it seems will take any route to avoid re entering the Mines, while Gandalf is constatnly seeking to disuade him. Why?

Was Aragorn aware of some specific menace, or just of a vague feeling of danger? And how much did Gandalf actually know? Why was he so insistent on passing through Moria - unless he knew of the Balrog, & the need to confront it, why would he even want to pass through? If, as Elrond had said of Gandalf:

..this shall be his great task, & maybe the end of his labours.

what did he mean? Did Elrond know of Gandalf's desire to enter Moria & face Durin's Bane?

What we see, at the very least, is a growing argument between the two leaders of the Fellowship. How much had Gandalf told Aragorn about what he desired to do, & more importantly, why he wanted to do it? Was Gandalf really willing to lead the Ringbearer into Moria, knowing the danger? And was Aragorn trying to protect the Ringbearer, & help to ensure the survival of the Quest by demanding that every alternative route be tried first?

Why was Gandalf so willing to risk everything to enter the Mines? Did he feel that whatever the danger was, confronting it was worth risking the Quest to face & defeat it?

It seems to me, that if Gandalf felt it was so necessary to enter Moria & face whatever was there, he could have left the party & gone in alone - but he didn't seem to consider that, so its not simply the case that he felt he had to go through Moria, but that all of them, including the Ringbearer, had to go through.

Of course, it could be simply that he felt that the way through the Mines would offer the greatest chance of concealment, so maybe all this speculation is wrong, but it seems to me there is a certain desperation on Gandalf's part to actually enter the Mines, which is not accountable for merely by a desire for secrecy.

I think what we also see is a dislike on Gandalf's part over not being in charge. Perhaps a reluctance to surrender authority - as if the 'old' powers of Middle earth were reluctant to let go.