LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 02 - The Council of Elrond

[davem]

Originally Posted by Esty

The ultimate goal of personal development is not delegating one or the other element to a partner, but learning to integrate both within one's self to achieve balance.

Yet its interesting to see how various characters abilities & personalities are enhanced by their partners, & how the opposite can also be the case - Manwe is able to see farther from his seat on Taniquetil when Varda is beside him, Beren could not have achieved his Quest without Luthien, Aragorn won through in the end not just because of his own courage, but because Arwen aided & watched over him.

On the other hand, after Galadriel passed into the West Celeborn seemed to fade & lose purpose, the loss of Celebrian seems to have devastated Elrond, & perhaps played some part in his view that life is simply a series of 'defeats & fruitless victories'.

One other thing - Elrond's statement that its often the case that small hands do the great deeds because they must while the great are concerned elsewhere - is this actually the case? It seems from a reading of the Legendarium that its the opposite - its the great who do the great deeds, not the small. So why would Elrond claim otherwise - to encourage Frodo? In fact it seems that the only examples we have of 'small hands doing great deeds' is in the Hobbit & LotR. Is this a case of Tolkien changing his philosophy between the early tales & LotR?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

This discussion of eros and logos, and the need to find balance (either between two or within one) is casting my whole Boromir/Frodo pairing into a new light. They are both of them 'loners' in the sense that at the breaking of the Fellowship they will each decide to go their own way -- in a sense, the breaking is a joint-venture by both of them (Frodo knows that he must go to Mordor alone if he is to save his friends, Boromir knows that he must finally seize the Ring if he is to save his city). Both of their decisions are wildly unbalanced ones, but both are corrected (Frodo's by Sam, and Boromir's by Aragorn).

But this is getting ahead of ourselves again -- to return to the Council. . .

It strikes me that we can see the entire debate as a search for a balance, or integration, of logos and eros. One the one hand is the logical recognition that the Ring has got to go in the fire, and on the other are the fears and passions of the people who are forced to realise this. I find it interesting that in the end, Frodo's 'decision' to take the burden is not a reasoned one at all -- in fact, he is hard pressed to know the reasons for taking the Ring. He is motivated only by a "feeling". Sam, Pippin and Merry also go with him for the sake of their love and for no other reason.

So in the Council we see a kind of integration in which eros (love, in the sense of love for others at the expense of self, which is more properly claritas) is swayed by the recognition of logos, but in the end, eros/claritas is more necessary or dependable. As Gandalf says, Pippin and Merry are better companions for Frodo than someone like Glorfindel -- that makes no sense, but it feels right.

And once again, I will point out that this balance is achieved by a group of men, without any women, so this is why I resist the notion of locating the logos-eros relation on a gender pairing. In fact, I resist locating them in a pairing of any kind insofar as there are many people at the Council not just two (or even two groups or kinds of people). I think that the relation between logos/reason and eros/emotion is more properly located in the relation between the group and the individual; the many and the one. It's as a group that they decide what must be done, but in the end it is for the love of his homeland and friends that a single hobbit accepts the burden of that decision.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Fordim

In fact, I resist locating them in a pairing of any kind insofar as there are many people at the Council not just two (or even two groups or kinds of people).

The terminology we use can be misleading, certainly. We could use mind/heart instead of logos/eros or logic/compassion, etc, because all are equally useful & equally misleading. We could even talk about Apollonian/Dionysian or Yin-Yang as Aiwendil suggested. In fact, I wonder whether it might be interesting to classify all the characters in that way? We might actually find out that the heroes have both sides in balance if we compare their acts & the decisions they make, the 'villains' all lean towards one extreme or the other.

[Lhunardawen]

*pants*
Here I am, late as usual.

Now that I have read at least the Silmarillion and the Unfinished Tales (as I have not when I first read this chapter), I am more amazed of Tolkien's genius. I saw that he did not intend LotR to be a book by itself, but as a continuation of what happened in the previous ages. This chapter presents a seemingly long-expected re-meeting of the Wise, this time including representatives from each race who are in some way connected to the task at hand.

Admittedly, I skipped the part of Gloin's narrative when I first read this chapter. I could not relate to what he was saying, as I haven't read The Hobbit then. But I have now, anyway. *blushes*

I would like start with, in my opinion, the most attention-grabbing character in this chapter: Boromir. He was an important man, and he wanted everyone to know that. But up until this moment, I am wondering why the dream came first, and more times, to his brother Faramir. Was the summons not really meant for him to answer? Should he have stayed in Minas Tirith instead, sending his brother in his place?

Unexpectedly, I felt a surge of annoyance toward him when he was trying to make everyone in the council feel guilty, it seems, of their apathy and lack of gratitude for the deeds his people are doing to stop the advances of the Enemy. Has he even thought of the events in the North? The Dunedain get less gratitude and more scorn and disrespect from the people whom they are trying to protect. I found it so ironic that Aragorn, a man of purer Numenorean blood, would be treated this contemptuously as opposed to Boromir. That is why I wanted to cheer out loud when Bilbo stood up and recited the famous poem he made for the Ranger.

I was touched by Aragorn and Gandalf's dedication in the fight against the Enemy.

'There I was at fault,' he said. 'I was lulled by the words of Saruman the Wise; but I should have sought for the truth sooner, and our peril would now be less.'

Gandalf took the blame upon himself, as if the responsibility for the whole of Middle Earth was his! He did not use his involvement in the task to lord it over everyone; instead, he accepted it with humility, contrary to what Saruman did.

As for Aragorn:

'Isildur's heir should labor to repair Isildur's fault.'

What modesty! This sentence alone adds to his swoon-worthiness. (I seem to have been counting the points. )

Later into the discussion, we have found that the sole sensible solution to the problem of the Ring was to send it to Mount Doom, in Sauron's realm. I found the irony of this very depressing: this deed would lead to their victory over Sauron, but as the Three are connected to the One, it would also cause the eventual waning of the Elves and their works. Seems to me it's a no-win situation.

In the end, Frodo accepted the dreadful task. I could imagine his fear and nervousness at that time, but being equaled to Hador, Hurin, Turin, and Beren might have given him a boost of confidence. And I do believe he deserves to be seated among them.

Even the most subtle spiders may leave a weak thread, as Gandalf said, and he has told us how deceiving the honest Radagast was the undoing of Saruman's plot. And I believe that in the case of Sauron, the weakness is quite similar. They both failed to win people over into darkness. Sauron has not put in mind the possibility that the Ring would be refused by anyone who finds it. He thought that the Ring-finder would only desire power and dominion, and use the Ring to attain it. Funny this misconception would lead to his downfall...

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Perhaps not the most popular stance... But here we go!

Granted, though we are often reminded of Boromir’s proud ways in this chapter, I do not feel that he was arrogant, but spoke out of the great isolation of Gondor and pride fostered by and exemplified by Denethor. Boromir’s bleak take on the situation, and it’s possible solution, also sounded quite a bit like his father speaking. And his 'I'm not begging a boon...' declarations sound to me as if he has been told not to ask help, but is trying to get around it some how. But I do wonder what turn the story might have taken if Faramir had gone to Rivendell, as he seemed, truly, to be the one called there.

Yes, reading the Silmarillion and UT increase the 'goosebump' factor of this chapter, but even without the full back history, you get the sense, that every corner of western ME is experiencing turmoil for the very same reason, desire of the ring. Though they do not realize the extent of that turmoil until now.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This chapter is so full of details that I'm still mulling over some of them. One question that came to me while rereading it is, whence came the Dwarven restlessness that prompted them to attempt retaking Moria? Glóin says:

...a shadow of disquiet fell upon our people. Whence it came we did not at first perceive.

He does not tell us if they found the source of this discontent - was it planted? If so, by whom? Sauron's agents? Why? Later in the chapter, Glóin says,

...it was partly in hope to find that ring that Balin went away.

Though the Dwarves didn't know it, Sauron already had the last Dwarven ring, so that wouldn't have been his reason for sparking that foolhardy adventure.


I also noticed one other person who was corrupted by the Ring, though he never saw it or came in its proximity - Saruman!

It is perilous to study too deeply the arts of the Enemy, for good or for ill.

He shows some of the results that Gandalf feared for himself, had he taken the Ring - Saruman seeks to rule, for the best, as he thinks.

...our time is at hand: the world of Men, which we must rule. But we must have power, power to order all things as we will, for that good which only the Wise can see.

With those words, he shows that he has forsaken the task that was given him, to aid subtly, not to rule.


One detail about Boromir struck me positively this time - he speaks in defense of Rohan as Gondor's ally. He protests against the notion that they pay a tribute of horses to Mordor. That shows loyalty.


Another little thing that I noticed - Galdor speaks of the danger that Sauron could defeat Gondor and go on to assail the White Towers and the Havens. I always had the impression that the Towers were relics of long-gone times and no longer inhabited. Were they manned (or "Elved" ) after all?