Evil - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Son of Númenor · 09-19-2004, 08:58 AM

Evil in Tolkien's world seems to me, ultimately, to be the act of setting one's self up in direct opposition to the will of the Creator - or to be knowingly subservient to one who does this. In the former category we have, as Ulmo said, Sauron and Morgoth - and, I would posit, Saruman as well. In the latter, examples that spring to mind are the Balrogs, orcs, Gríma Wormtongue, et al.

In defense of Elrond, - and, for that matter, all the Elves of the Third Age besides Legolas - it seems a truth universally acknowledged by the 'good guys' in Lord of the Rings that the Elves were 'declining' - that it was the time for Men (and, as Elrond says in the "Council", for Hobbits) to take the proverbial reigns. The Eldar, after all, had battled Sauron and Morgoth for ages, and had grown weary of fighting - and of mortal lands. What better way to pass the torch than to lend guidance and help to Men at need, (without seeking to dominate or interfere) during the battle that could prove definitive of Men's 'time' as the stewards of Middle-earth?

Boromir88 · 09-19-2004, 02:55 PM

Yes, I think just the presence of Elladan and Elrohir at Pelennor fields helped "men" out a good deal, and as Son of Numenor puts it "not seeking to dominate or interfere," the presence of Elladan and Elrohir show that. I mean as the best orc fighters in the third age they help out a great deal, but yet its not a "dominating" presence.

HerenIstarion · 09-19-2004, 04:32 PM

You might find it interesting to look at the following:

Shadow of the Past
Tolkien and Monsters

cheers

HerenIstarion · 09-20-2004, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avie

but did HE [Elrond] offer to take the Ring there?If not why not?

I suppose because:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandalf to Frodo

Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that maybe an encouraging thought

Fate (or Eru). In The Shadow of the Past, link provided above.

Besides, see The Role of Fate in Middle-Earth

cheers

Mithalwen · 09-20-2004, 01:22 PM

Well as has been mentioned - Elrond would have been far too conspicuous and -after all Gandalf was already going - but also Elrond and Galadriel keep their lands safe by the power in themselves and of the rings they wield. If Elrond leaves, Rivendell is vulnerable and the quest is no more likely to succeed.

Avie - I really thing you are being grossly unfair to Elrond - if he was only concerned about himself he would have "nanced" off to the Havens long ago, and rejoined his beloved Celebrian. HE stays to maintain Imladris as a last stronghold and refuge - open to all the free people of ME not just the Noldor. Given that the whole mess was caused by not following his advice, it is quite decent of Elrond to get invcolved at all...

Boromir88 · 09-20-2004, 02:04 PM

Mithalwen SOOOO true, good point about Elrond and Celebrian. Also, yes as you mentioned not just Noldor elves, but Elrond showed great respect to dwarves (as we get to see with Gloin), as well as to all peoples. I love how he was just an "I hate everything guy" in the movie...

"who will you look to when we are gone, dwarves hide in their mountains seeking riches they suck, men are weak, they're blood is spent they suck, heck I even hate my own people, might as well just bow to Sauron now."

Mithalwen · 09-21-2004, 12:08 PM

" ...and you can't even trust the Istari .. and I have suspicions that my Ma in Law is a power junkie" .. no wonder he is starting to drink

In the Council, Elrond seems to have fallen out of a headache pill advert "Why do all these shouty people have to come to MY house" Yeah ..... I would have booked a one way ticket to Valinor long ago .... Poor guy - survives a life that could keep Jerry springer and Oprah going for ever, founds a refuge and he still gets it in the neck..

"Well Jerry, My dad was the child of a mixed marriage and he became a refugee aged seven when his home was destroyed. His grandfather was killed and his parents went west to seek help and were never heard of again. My mom lost her entire family when her home was also destroyed - my parents had a lot in common - and when my twin brother and I were still small, distant cousins attacked our home and kidnapped us. My Dad became a star and my mom turned into a giant bird. Then my brother and I had to choose whether to be elves or men. My brother chose to be a man and various of his descendents have been freeloading off me ever since. My last remaining relative was killed in front of me in a war in Mordor. At last things get better and I finally met a woman who understands me and we have a nice house and 3 fine children. Then guess what she gets captured by orcs! My sons are only interested in killing things and my daughter wants to marry one of my brothers descendants...... I have spent my life trying to counteract evil and what thanks do I get ..."

09-19-2004, 08:58 AM	#1
Son of Númenor A Shade of Westernesse Join Date: May 2004 Location: The last wave over Atalantë Posts: 515	Evil in Tolkien's world seems to me, ultimately, to be the act of setting one's self up in direct opposition to the will of the Creator - or to be knowingly subservient to one who does this. In the former category we have, as Ulmo said, Sauron and Morgoth - and, I would posit, Saruman as well. In the latter, examples that spring to mind are the Balrogs, orcs, Gríma Wormtongue, et al. In defense of Elrond, - and, for that matter, all the Elves of the Third Age besides Legolas - it seems a truth universally acknowledged by the 'good guys' in Lord of the Rings that the Elves were 'declining' - that it was the time for Men (and, as Elrond says in the "Council", for Hobbits) to take the proverbial reigns. The Eldar, after all, had battled Sauron and Morgoth for ages, and had grown weary of fighting - and of mortal lands. What better way to pass the torch than to lend guidance and help to Men at need, (without seeking to dominate or interfere) during the battle that could prove definitive of Men's 'time' as the stewards of Middle-earth? __________________ "This miserable drizzling afternoon I have been reading up old military lecture-notes again:- and getting bored with them after an hour and a half. I have done some touches to my nonsense fairy language - to its improvement." Last edited by Son of Númenor; 09-19-2004 at 10:17 AM.

09-19-2004, 04:32 PM	#3
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	You might find it interesting to look at the following: Shadow of the Past Tolkien and Monsters cheers __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

09-20-2004, 01:22 PM	#5
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Well as has been mentioned - Elrond would have been far too conspicuous and -after all Gandalf was already going - but also Elrond and Galadriel keep their lands safe by the power in themselves and of the rings they wield. If Elrond leaves, Rivendell is vulnerable and the quest is no more likely to succeed. Avie - I really thing you are being grossly unfair to Elrond - if he was only concerned about himself he would have "nanced" off to the Havens long ago, and rejoined his beloved Celebrian. HE stays to maintain Imladris as a last stronghold and refuge - open to all the free people of ME not just the Noldor. Given that the whole mess was caused by not following his advice, it is quite decent of Elrond to get invcolved at all... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

09-21-2004, 12:08 PM	#7
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	" ...and you can't even trust the Istari .. and I have suspicions that my Ma in Law is a power junkie" .. no wonder he is starting to drink In the Council, Elrond seems to have fallen out of a headache pill advert "Why do all these shouty people have to come to MY house" Yeah ..... I would have booked a one way ticket to Valinor long ago .... Poor guy - survives a life that could keep Jerry springer and Oprah going for ever, founds a refuge and he still gets it in the neck.. "Well Jerry, My dad was the child of a mixed marriage and he became a refugee aged seven when his home was destroyed. His grandfather was killed and his parents went west to seek help and were never heard of again. My mom lost her entire family when her home was also destroyed - my parents had a lot in common - and when my twin brother and I were still small, distant cousins attacked our home and kidnapped us. My Dad became a star and my mom turned into a giant bird. Then my brother and I had to choose whether to be elves or men. My brother chose to be a man and various of his descendents have been freeloading off me ever since. My last remaining relative was killed in front of me in a war in Mordor. At last things get better and I finally met a woman who understands me and we have a nice house and 3 fine children. Then guess what she gets captured by orcs! My sons are only interested in killing things and my daughter wants to marry one of my brothers descendants...... I have spent my life trying to counteract evil and what thanks do I get ..." __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace Last edited by Mithalwen; 09-24-2004 at 09:04 AM. Reason: syntax - correct my for his

09-19-2004, 02:55 PM	#2
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Yes, I think just the presence of Elladan and Elrohir at Pelennor fields helped "men" out a good deal, and as Son of Numenor puts it "not seeking to dominate or interfere," the presence of Elladan and Elrohir show that. I mean as the best orc fighters in the third age they help out a great deal, but yet its not a "dominating" presence.

09-20-2004, 02:04 PM	#6
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Mithalwen SOOOO true, good point about Elrond and Celebrian. Also, yes as you mentioned not just Noldor elves, but Elrond showed great respect to dwarves (as we get to see with Gloin), as well as to all peoples. I love how he was just an "I hate everything guy" in the movie... "who will you look to when we are gone, dwarves hide in their mountains seeking riches they suck, men are weak, they're blood is spent they suck, heck I even hate my own people, might as well just bow to Sauron now."